National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions • Hacker News Board

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#321

Post by mikeash » Wed, Aug 22, 2018, 3:23 AM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #57

TaylorAlexander wrote: post #10

A relevant snippet: “California inmates were sent off to fight what has become the largest wildfire in the state’s history for just $1 an hour. These firefighters, who volunteered for a vocational training program offered by the California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation, are often disqualified from the work after release because a required credential is denied to anyone with a criminal record. Hundreds…

> Arguing that it’s good for them is paternalistic bullshit. The same argument could justify slavery. If prisons are cash strapped, whose responsibility is that? I believe society put these people away and we should pay for it. Either it’s worth it to us or it’s not. I'm somewhat sympathetic to the argument, but why is the focus solely on what is "good for them?" Discussions of over-incarceration aside, there is a le…

“why shouldn't they be forced to take on some of their own upkeep?”

Because slavery is wrong.

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#322

Post by tomcam » Wed, Aug 22, 2018, 3:26 AM UTC

WtfRuSerious wrote: post #206

api_or_ipa wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're totally right. What better way to show inmates the virtue of living an upright life than to treat them just like real people. If you pay them 85c/hr they'll resent The Man even harder and see a life of crime as the only way they'll ever succeed. Pay them for their hardwork and they'll learn they can succeed in life by hardwork, determination and honesty, all virtues that prison _should_ be about instilling.

I'm going to use a alt account for this ( for obvious reasons )... I disagree with this sentiment, I was ( some 20 years ago ) incarcerated for drug dealing. I broke the law ( much more than I was caught and prosecuted for btw... ) and I deserved what I got, probably more. For the record, being in prison sucks... it's SUPPOSED to suck, it's supposed to make you regret what you did to get put in there and actively loo…

I’m interested in this subject. Hoping you’ll connect with me through my HN profile.

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#323

Post by hackermailman » Wed, Aug 22, 2018, 3:40 AM UTC

The US prison system will probably be the first way somebody fulfills the one million jobs RFS https://www.ycombinator.com/rfs/#million

Find a way to sell a service the prisoners can learn to do through apprenticing with experienced prisoners (b2b sales, data analysis, ect), find a way to get companies to contract your inmates, find a way to proof it from bad inmates making politicians look embarassed by limiting the scope of the service to something they can't use for crime, find a way to get prisoners to agree by paying them the state min wage,find a way to get prison workers and public to agree by making it as non disruptive to set up as possible, hire former inmates who worked for you to manage the on site operations, counter 'this is slavery' criticism by hiring prisoners themselves to be your company PR. Prisoners can pay off their conviction fines and at the same time save money for release to land soft. Pitch this to YC and get funding to conduct some kind of data gathering to guage what politicians and public would be comfortable with (types of offenses permitted to work, industries that are least adversarial to this model so willing to work with your prisoners, ect).

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#324

Post by Retra » Wed, Aug 22, 2018, 3:45 AM UTC

Ar-Curunir wrote: post #310

nickpinkston wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

However, as someone whose Dad is in prison, a lot of these guys really do want to get out there and do something useful and want this experience. Many times the people complaining are privileged elites who are inferring what these populations want, but I would caution them to not make assumptions and do their research. It is not unambiguously bad to do this. We can talk about the long-term reforms of prison, but ther…

That's true, but if you're going to use labour, then pay for labour. Anything else is slavery. Especially when this "experience" is not useful post-prison.

"Experience" isn't really a form of payment anyhow.

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#325

Post by philwelch » Wed, Aug 22, 2018, 4:07 AM UTC

andrepd wrote: post #317

philwelch wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For-profit prisons, a multi-billion dollar business, are precisely incenctivised to bring and keep and many prisoners inside as possible. For-profit prisons are obviously a bad policy, but only 8% of America's prisoners are incarcerated in them ( http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/04/11/u-s-private-... ) and it's not clear that they are either necessary nor sufficient as a cause for these problems.

Not the only cause, no, but their impact can be felt far beyond those 8%, via their intense lobbying for e.g. mandatory minimum sentencing, making life tougher for convicts after they're freed to maximise recidivism, etc

As long as there's a corrections officer union you'll have the exact same lobbying.

Most of these policies were enacted during the 1960's-1990's crime wave as a response to it, and not as some sort of special-interest conspiracy. It turns out that unintended consequences are a lot more common than sinister special interest conspiracies.

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#326

Post by solidsnack9000 » Wed, Aug 22, 2018, 4:07 AM UTC

Broken_Hippo wrote: post #128

mywittyname wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It should be noted that the US Constitution allows prisoners to be treated as slaves: > Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

Just because it is in the constitution doesn't make it right. That is a document designed to be changed, after all. Women couldn't vote for quite some time. Some people weren't fully human. Only landowners could vote. And so on. Furthermore, it being in the constitution still doesn't detract from it being slavery.

Even if we accept that it being in the Constitution makes it right, it is permitting slavery as a punishment and not as an expedient.

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#327

Post by refurb » Wed, Aug 22, 2018, 4:37 AM UTC

jaccarmac wrote: post #269

pasiaj wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, the Nordics employ this "stupidest idea ever" and outcomes are definitely better than in the US.

The author of the parent comment seems not to understand recidivism in the United States if they were ever in prison at all. The Nordic example is leagues more potent than an anonymous anecdote.

Leave it to HN to ignore someone with far more experience/knowledge than them and counter with “I read X somewhere, so you’re wrong.”

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#328

Post by dang » Wed, Aug 22, 2018, 4:44 AM UTC

almostdeadguy wrote: post #179

reaperducer wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They keep the bright lights on until midnight, and turn them back on at 4am (and require the inmates to get up). It's one of several measures to keep the inmates docile. See also: feeding them low-quality food, and only enough for survival. A hungry, sleep-deprived prisoner isn't going to revolt, and after release may think twice about going back.

You sound like a horrible person

Personal attacks will get you banned here, regardless of how wrong someone else is or you feel they are. Please don't post like this again.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#329

Post by twblalock » Wed, Aug 22, 2018, 4:49 AM UTC

tyingq wrote: post #274

a-fried-egg wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. Prison is supposed to suck.

The "suck" might please puritanical values. However, it doesn't encourage inmates to get on a better path. It just churns out bitter unemployable people with high rates of recidivism.

The inmate who posted his story seems to think the "suck" has value.

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#330

Post by FireBeyond » Wed, Aug 22, 2018, 4:50 AM UTC

ada1981 wrote: post #189

PhasmaFelis wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It’s worth noting that this is a voulenteer program and that for every day you work you get 1 day off your sentence. So you can effectively halve your time in prison. Interesting. You could conceivably rationalize that as being equivalent to a fair wage--every day you work gets you one extra day closer to getting out and starting a real job. Of course that still ignores the obvious problem of how hard it is for a b…

I think the fire program is probably one of the better subsystems. You get better visitation, you are outside, I’d imagine that though dangerous, fighting fires is rewarding. Plus you earn a day of freedom for every day worked. They ought to give them the training to become fire fighters when they get out though, and work to change laws preventing felons from firefighting work.

In several states, there are exceptions that specifically allow inmate firefighters to get at least wildland fire jobs (which is what they're typically doing anyway, not structural).