National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions • Hacker News Board

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#341

Post by acomar » Wed, Aug 22, 2018, 6:56 AM UTC

rule_follower wrote: post #242

acomar wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe we should rehabilitate criminals in some fashion that doesn't involve indentured servitude or putting them in cages and reserve the latter only for those who cannot be rehabilitated. Trying to argue that forced labor is more humane is morally bankrupt from the get-go. That it's being made by people with a literal financial incentive to see the system not change only underscores that point.

Private prisons house a tiny fraction of US inmates, an estimated 8% in 2015[0] and the federal numbers are exclusively for the detention of foreigners illegally in the country. [0]: http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/04/11/u-s-private-...

I'm a prison abolitionist. Your reply could not possibly fall on ears that care less about your point.

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#342

Post by arthur_pryor » Wed, Aug 22, 2018, 6:59 AM UTC

solidsnack9000 wrote: post #326

Broken_Hippo wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just because it is in the constitution doesn't make it right. That is a document designed to be changed, after all. Women couldn't vote for quite some time. Some people weren't fully human. Only landowners could vote. And so on. Furthermore, it being in the constitution still doesn't detract from it being slavery.

Even if we accept that it being in the Constitution makes it right, it is permitting slavery as a punishment and not as an expedient.

i agree that's one way to read it, but it seems plausible to me that the intent really was just as a winnable end-run around abolition.

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#343

Post by arthur_pryor » Wed, Aug 22, 2018, 7:01 AM UTC

danShumway wrote: post #298

ada1981 wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s worth noting that this is a voulenteer program and that for every day you work you get 1 day off your sentence. So you can effectively halve your time in prison. This actually seems like a pretty good deal, what would you pay to get a day off your sentence? That said, I think the Prision system is fucked, has horrible incentives, private companies abuse bought prison labor, etc. etc. But I actually felt like thi…

My gut reaction to this is pretty negative. It feels instinctively wrong to tie prison time to pay - it should be tied to rehabilitation. And asking someone to risk their lives so they can gamble on reduced prison time just seems... I dunno, isn't that the thing that's usually done by villains in the story books? I mean, maybe I'm naive about it, but I have a fairly strong cultural background telling me that using pe…

> Rehabilitation isn't transactional, and a debt to society isn't something that can be repaid with cash.

well said. concise and correct, IMO.

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#344

Post by rule_follower » Wed, Aug 22, 2018, 7:04 AM UTC

acomar wrote: post #341

rule_follower wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Private prisons house a tiny fraction of US inmates, an estimated 8% in 2015[0] and the federal numbers are exclusively for the detention of foreigners illegally in the country. [0]: http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/04/11/u-s-private-...

I'm a prison abolitionist. Your reply could not possibly fall on ears that care less about your point.

You were the one who mentioned financial incentives/conflicts vis-a-vis private prisons.

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#345

Post by siruncledrew » Wed, Aug 22, 2018, 7:07 AM UTC

chuckgreenman wrote: post #80

On the one hand, you don't really want there to be much of an economy in prison. The more money inmates make the more they have to bribe corrections workers and create an unsafe environment. On the other hand, we can't keep wages so low in these institutions that basic hygiene items require a hours on hours of work. How do you expect someone to go from incarcerated to living in the world with no money? I swear we jus…

Adding income equality to prison would make the problems way worse. Basic hygiene stuff should just be provided by the prison (probably something a contract company like Aramark could easily and cheaply provide).

I suppose the main returns of value to a prisoner are time or money. It seems fair to offer a choice of getting a reduced sentence vs. getting paid (probably max. minimum wage). Making someone in prison understand choices and consequences of choices seems like a key thing to understand while there. It's like living with a concrete bench - you'll survive, but you won't enjoy it.

Of course, this stuff might only apply to a certain group of prisoners.

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#346

Post by sgift » Wed, Aug 22, 2018, 7:18 AM UTC

refurb wrote: post #327

jaccarmac wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The author of the parent comment seems not to understand recidivism in the United States if they were ever in prison at all. The Nordic example is leagues more potent than an anonymous anecdote.

Leave it to HN to ignore someone with far more experience/knowledge than them and counter with “I read X somewhere, so you’re wrong.”

Leave it to the typical HN comment on things like that to equate heaps of evidence with "I read X somewhere" and praise some anon anecdote over solid data.

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#347

Post by sgift » Wed, Aug 22, 2018, 7:20 AM UTC

twblalock wrote: post #329

tyingq wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "suck" might please puritanical values. However, it doesn't encourage inmates to get on a better path. It just churns out bitter unemployable people with high rates of recidivism.

The inmate who posted his story seems to think the "suck" has value.

We have no way to check if they were actually an inmate or just a sock puppet for their political position. Even then, they never experienced the alternative, so they don't have any more information than we do. A classic "alternative history" problem.

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#348

Post by jacobush » Wed, Aug 22, 2018, 7:39 AM UTC

Retra wrote: post #324

Ar-Curunir wrote: post #310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's true, but if you're going to use labour, then pay for labour. Anything else is slavery. Especially when this "experience" is not useful post-prison.

"Experience" isn't really a form of payment anyhow.

But it is, or interns would be paid in full.

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#349

Post by jacobush » Wed, Aug 22, 2018, 7:46 AM UTC

ada1981 wrote: post #186

conanbatt wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It’s worth noting that this is a voulenteer program and that for every day you work you get 1 day off your sentence. So you can effectively halve your time in prison. The perverse incentive of increasing prison times to generate more cheap labor.

This is certainly a huge issue. The meta-system is completely fucked, no question. But this subsystem is being presented in a skewed way. Yes it’s $1/hour; but you also earn a day of freedom for each day you work.

Only 9999 days to go.

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#350

Post by distances » Wed, Aug 22, 2018, 7:48 AM UTC

meowface wrote: post #147

modells wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Prisoners are also unable to become smokejumpers or hot shots because they not only have a criminal record, but don't get the same training such as the EMT requirement, yet they're put in harm's way. Democracy Now covered this topic extensively.

The problem is if this were regulated or changed in some way, it would take only one or two instances of an ex-convict firefighter harming or killing someone before a very high number of people start demanding a return to a zero-tolerance convict hiring policy. It's often a CYA and public perception issue: org X receives application from convict, considers fallout if convict does something bad, realizes it'll become…

> It's often a CYA and public perception issue: org X receives application from convict, considers fallout if convict does something bad, realizes it'll become a PR nightmare and that they'll be torn to shreds for permitting the hire.

Many (most?) western countries do not publish convict names unless it's very serious, such as murder. There's no reason a typical employer, let alone the public, should know you served time in the past.