National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions • Hacker News Board

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#71

Post by rosser » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 8:30 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #65

rosser wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nobody is arguing you should have to pay kids minimum wage for doing chores... "Chores" and "labor" are categorically different things, and the motivation for the former isn't usually "offsetting their upkeep", so much as it's "instilling a sense of personal responsibility". This is a specious comparison.

Historically, "chores" included carrying a share of one's upkeep by doing work on a farm, cooking, etc. In many places, it still does.

And outside those limited contexts, it runs into child labor laws.

You can't premise an argument regarding the current general case for prisoners on what's now either a historical, or an edge case for children.

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#72

Post by lovich » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 8:30 PM UTC

zaroth wrote: post #64

makecheck wrote: post #41

I never understood the idea of paying prisoners absurdly little “because prison”. Why, because they’re not paying rent? And there’s no way they will find a job on Day 1 after release, meaning they essentially have not enough money while in prison, no way to save money, and poverty at release. Given that, they’ll probably be forced to steal to survive after release and...end up back in prison. It’s inhumane garbage, a…

I’m not sure prisons should offer gainful employment to prisoners. Teaching, training, therapy, yes, please, absolutely. Humane conditions and treatment from the guards most definitely. But minimum wage? I’m not sure. I like the idea of inmates being able to complete their sentence with some funds they’ve saved up to help get back on their feet. But that’s what halfway houses are supposed to support I guess?

Why should prisoners not get minimum wage when everyone else does? How is forcing people to work for less than is levally allowed, in dangerous conditions as well, any different from slavery?

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#73

Post by fzeroracer » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 8:30 PM UTC

zaroth wrote: post #64

makecheck wrote: post #41

I never understood the idea of paying prisoners absurdly little “because prison”. Why, because they’re not paying rent? And there’s no way they will find a job on Day 1 after release, meaning they essentially have not enough money while in prison, no way to save money, and poverty at release. Given that, they’ll probably be forced to steal to survive after release and...end up back in prison. It’s inhumane garbage, a…

I’m not sure prisons should offer gainful employment to prisoners. Teaching, training, therapy, yes, please, absolutely. Humane conditions and treatment from the guards most definitely. But minimum wage? I’m not sure. I like the idea of inmates being able to complete their sentence with some funds they’ve saved up to help get back on their feet. But that’s what halfway houses are supposed to support I guess?

Prisons should absolutely offer gainful employment because that's one of the best ways they can be reintegrated into society which I would hope is the goal of prison!

If prisoners could be given a living wage then I would bet you would have less of them returning to selling drugs etc in order to survive because they leave prison with literally nothing to their name.

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#74

Post by jopsen » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 8:31 PM UTC

zaroth wrote: post #64

makecheck wrote: post #41

I never understood the idea of paying prisoners absurdly little “because prison”. Why, because they’re not paying rent? And there’s no way they will find a job on Day 1 after release, meaning they essentially have not enough money while in prison, no way to save money, and poverty at release. Given that, they’ll probably be forced to steal to survive after release and...end up back in prison. It’s inhumane garbage, a…

I’m not sure prisons should offer gainful employment to prisoners. Teaching, training, therapy, yes, please, absolutely. Humane conditions and treatment from the guards most definitely. But minimum wage? I’m not sure. I like the idea of inmates being able to complete their sentence with some funds they’ve saved up to help get back on their feet. But that’s what halfway houses are supposed to support I guess?

Don't try to rationalize prisons don't really work for anything other than physical separation.

So why try to restrict it beyond physical separation?

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#75

Post by lovich » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 8:31 PM UTC

TaylorAlexander wrote: post #10

A relevant snippet: “California inmates were sent off to fight what has become the largest wildfire in the state’s history for just $1 an hour. These firefighters, who volunteered for a vocational training program offered by the California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation, are often disqualified from the work after release because a required credential is denied to anyone with a criminal record. Hundreds…

Additionally, does the work experience card even work if many of these prisoners are legally barred from working the same jobs?

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#76

Post by celim307 » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 8:32 PM UTC

TaylorAlexander wrote: post #10

A relevant snippet: “California inmates were sent off to fight what has become the largest wildfire in the state’s history for just $1 an hour. These firefighters, who volunteered for a vocational training program offered by the California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation, are often disqualified from the work after release because a required credential is denied to anyone with a criminal record. Hundreds…

Not to mention, who can compete with a jail offering labor for 1$ an hour? It's unfair to both the prisoners and anyone else in the manual labor business

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#77

Post by noobermin » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 8:32 PM UTC

kevmo wrote: post #50

"Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction." - 13th Amendment of the U.S. Constitution Whenever anyone says slavery no longer exists in America, I point them to this. The foundational document of our system of government expressly allows slavery. We house…

Can any lawyer comment? A reading of the 13th amendment seems to justify involuntary servitude as a punishment for a crime, does this mean prison labor that isn't included in a sentence a violation of the 13th amendment? Just reading of this seems to allow one to make an legal argument along those lines, so I imagine there must have been some case that lead to a clarification of the 13th in the intervening century or so.

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#78

Post by vageli » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 8:32 PM UTC

zaroth wrote: post #64

makecheck wrote: post #41

I never understood the idea of paying prisoners absurdly little “because prison”. Why, because they’re not paying rent? And there’s no way they will find a job on Day 1 after release, meaning they essentially have not enough money while in prison, no way to save money, and poverty at release. Given that, they’ll probably be forced to steal to survive after release and...end up back in prison. It’s inhumane garbage, a…

I’m not sure prisons should offer gainful employment to prisoners. Teaching, training, therapy, yes, please, absolutely. Humane conditions and treatment from the guards most definitely. But minimum wage? I’m not sure. I like the idea of inmates being able to complete their sentence with some funds they’ve saved up to help get back on their feet. But that’s what halfway houses are supposed to support I guess?

> I’m not sure prisons should offer gainful employment to prisoners.

> Teaching, training, therapy, yes, please, absolutely. Humane conditions and treatment from the guards most definitely.

> But minimum wage? I’m not sure. I like the idea of innates being able to complete their sentence with some funds they’ve saved up to help get back on their feet. But that’s what halfway houses are supposed to support I guess?

So, don't let people save on their own and instead force them into a new aspect of the justice system upon "release"? Didn't they serve their time in prison? Why prolong the sentence and force them to remain in the system?

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#79

Post by vageli » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 8:33 PM UTC

uxp100 wrote: post #66

rosser wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nobody is arguing you should have to pay kids minimum wage for doing chores... "Chores" and "labor" are categorically different things, and the motivation for the former isn't usually "offsetting their upkeep", so much as it's "instilling a sense of personal responsibility". This is a specious comparison.

What's the difference between a teenager mowing the lawn for their parents and someone paid to mow a lawn? Furthermore, when a farmer's child does chores alongside a paid laborer, what's going on?

One is familial, the other is a business relationship.

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#80

Post by chuckgreenman » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 8:33 PM UTC

On the one hand, you don't really want there to be much of an economy in prison. The more money inmates make the more they have to bribe corrections workers and create an unsafe environment.

On the other hand, we can't keep wages so low in these institutions that basic hygiene items require a hours on hours of work. How do you expect someone to go from incarcerated to living in the world with no money? I swear we just love to create problems in this country and then wonder out loud how those problems came to be.