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National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

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Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#171

Post by nemo44x »

makecheck wrote: post #41

I never understood the idea of paying prisoners absurdly little “because prison”. Why, because they’re not paying rent? And there’s no way they will find a job on Day 1 after release, meaning they essentially have not enough money while in prison, no way to save money, and poverty at release. Given that, they’ll probably be forced to steal to survive after release and...end up back in prison. It’s inhumane garbage, a…

The alternative is sitting inside all day. Having something to do at least lets you get out and make your day more interesting.

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#172

Post by a1369209993 »

rosser wrote: post #148
a1369209993 wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 1. The right to say "no" without repercussions beyond "not getting paid". Have you ever had parents? I realize it's outside the Overton window to do anything about it, but age-based slavery[0] is ubiquitous and the legal default in essentially (I think literally ) every country on Earth. It's an even more pervasive affliction than copyright, so I find your ignorance implausible. 0: in the ownership sense; actually…

My comment was about kids mowing neighborhood lawns, not their own. Please try to address the argument I actually made.

I was; my comment was about the purported lack of repercussions for disobediance.

Also, you were responding to:

> a teenager mowing the lawn for their parents

which was about their (owner's) own lawn.

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#173

Post by DenisM »

goobynight wrote: post #155
RIMR wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You couldn't be more wrong. The supreme court could reinterpret this, and require forced labor to be a part of the sentence, not just allowed to be used against anyone in prison. Precedent changes over time. This idea that the current interpretation of the Constitution is immutable is defeatist and foolish.

The supreme court could reinterpret anything. The trend at the moment is that they aren't interfering with past rulings and that's not about to change with the new addition.

Remember the recent gay marriage ruling? They re-interpreted centuries of tradition.

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#174

Post by radiantswirl »

pmarreck wrote: post #123
makecheck wrote: post #41

I never understood the idea of paying prisoners absurdly little “because prison”. Why, because they’re not paying rent? And there’s no way they will find a job on Day 1 after release, meaning they essentially have not enough money while in prison, no way to save money, and poverty at release. Given that, they’ll probably be forced to steal to survive after release and...end up back in prison. It’s inhumane garbage, a…

I don’t disagree but just wanted to say something: The whole point of money was to make it possible for 2+ good actors to do legal (and different) work/goods/services for each other while profiting. Most people who end up in prison were “bad actors” by definition. The system was not benefiting from them. And thus I can’t help thinking that they don’t really deserve any of the system’s monetary medium of exchange.

"The wise man trusts the trustworthy

And he also trusts the untrustworthy

In this way, he makes them trustworthy."

-taoist proverb

If you write prisoners off as "bad actors", if you add nebulous financial punishment to the explicit punishment of confinement that they already undergo, one of the main consequences of that extra punishment for "bad actors" you're supporting is that you make it a lot harder for "bad actors" to become "good actors." Is that really what you want?

The price prisoners pay to society as penance for their crimes is confinement. We shouldn't also punish them with automatic demotion to a lower economic class like we currently do. The stigma around hiring prisoners amounts to "shadowbanning" prisoners from the economy because while technically they can participate, they're at a huge disadvantage.

The only way for a "bad actor" to become a "good actor" is if we make it possible in the first place.

That's why sometimes it makes sense to "Trust the untrustworthy."

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#175

Post by pmiller2 »

jklinger410 wrote: post #168
pmiller2 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I didn’t have to, I wouldn’t be working in the sense that I do now. I’d be pursuing interests that may or may not make money, but would bring me personal fulfillment.

If we chase this line of logic we will find that we are all slaves to something or another. It's about whether or not we want society to force certain types of slavery. We've barred "defacto" slavery, but what about these myriad other forms? Dragging old concepts out of their graves by repurposing words we thought we already knew the definitions is one way that progressives are trying to re-try, or appeal, certain co…

Not all of us are slaves. Those with enough wealth get to buy their way out of rules that apply to ordinary people. Do you really think Jeff Bezos is a slave?

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#176

Post by jupiter90000 »

fipple wrote: post #107
makecheck wrote: post #41

I never understood the idea of paying prisoners absurdly little “because prison”. Why, because they’re not paying rent? And there’s no way they will find a job on Day 1 after release, meaning they essentially have not enough money while in prison, no way to save money, and poverty at release. Given that, they’ll probably be forced to steal to survive after release and...end up back in prison. It’s inhumane garbage, a…

I think they should pay rent and should be paid proper wages, to accelerate reintroduction to society. Don’t do any work? Get the worst cell, with rent written off. Work as a firefighter? Get $30/hour which you can use to get better living conditions and better food in prison.

There would need to be an equivalent or greater effort to help them obtain jobs and nice living spaces outside of prison, otherwise: "Can't find a job out here! I'm gonna go back to prison and get me that sweet $30/hr prison job, where I can afford nice food and place to live. Also if I don't feel like working they'll take care of me."

Not to mention, prisons now incentivized to soak up that larger cashflow and get more prisoners

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#177

Post by ethansinjin »

bbarn wrote: post #24
AcerbicZero wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only time I heard anyone being sentenced to "hard labor" was in the military, so it seems like if you're given incarceration at your sentencing then that shouldn't automatically mean you're being sentenced to work while you're there? The punishment is incarceration, not labor, right? I guess this is an area where I'm exceptionally under-educated, so if you've got any good suggestions for reading on the topic I'd…

It may not be "hard labor" but isn't this what getting sentenced to community service is, in effect? Involuntary labor as a punishment for a crime.

As far as I’m aware, community labor is generally sentenced as an alternative to prison time.

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#178

Post by saagarjha »

zaroth wrote: post #145
conanbatt wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Either you like a rule for minimum wage or you dont, if you start choosing who gets it you subvert the very core principle that people deserve a sustenance wage. It would be reasonable to devote 10-20% of the wages to prison maintenance or victims reparations, but saying their labor is worth 1$ is preposterous.

There are a lot of rules and regulations which do not apply to prisoners. Likewise there are a lot of rules and regulations which only apply to prisoners. It’s not unreasonable to treat prisoners as a unique population / special case. They are not incarcerated so that they can continue gainful employment. Prisoners should not be getting paid to cook, clean, do laundry, etc. to help operate the prison, for example. My…

> Prisoners should not be getting paid to cook, clean, do laundry, etc. to help operate the prison, for example.

Why not?

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#179

Post by almostdeadguy »

reaperducer wrote: post #83
throwaway0x7647 wrote: post #53

My brother just went to jail and I’m just learning how crazy some things are there. They keep the bright lights on until midnight, and turn them back on at 4am (and require the inmates to get up). No one can properly function after repeated nights of less than 4 hours of sleep. I seriously think the jail just wants to push people to misbehave so they stay there longer and the jail can reap more profits.

They keep the bright lights on until midnight, and turn them back on at 4am (and require the inmates to get up). It's one of several measures to keep the inmates docile. See also: feeding them low-quality food, and only enough for survival. A hungry, sleep-deprived prisoner isn't going to revolt, and after release may think twice about going back.

You sound like a horrible person

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#180

Post by SahAssar »

throwawayjava wrote: post #54
wildmusings wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What business does the state have telling you how you should feel ? How you think think ? What you believe ? Rehabilitation is much more totalitarian than just giving you what you deserve and letting you get on with your life. The true content of your character is your business and your business alone. The rest of us should just be concerned with what you intentionally do . If you think you were justified in your cri…

It's a real shame you are being down-voted. Before forming an opinion on the role that "Rehabilitation" should play in parole hearings, HN readers should talk with (or at least read about) someone who has been through that process. Even when the intent is sincere, the implementation in American prisons can be downright draconian. "Rehabilitation" means learning what you are supposed to say/do and saying/doing it in a…

I don't think most people here arguing for a more rehabilitation-based prison system think it works perfectly or even good in the US. But on the other hand the US prison system has more inmates per capita than any other, so clearly something in either the legal system or the prison system has gone wrong.

Reform is needed, and IMO more punishment and less opportunity after exit will probably not help.

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