National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions • Hacker News Board

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#151

Post by Broken_Hippo » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 9:10 PM UTC

chuckgreenman wrote: post #80

On the one hand, you don't really want there to be much of an economy in prison. The more money inmates make the more they have to bribe corrections workers and create an unsafe environment. On the other hand, we can't keep wages so low in these institutions that basic hygiene items require a hours on hours of work. How do you expect someone to go from incarcerated to living in the world with no money? I swear we jus…

There are definitely ways to restrict what folks spend on and who they send money to.

One of the easiest ways would be to set up a normal, non-interest earnings savings account with no cash on site. For personal use items, simply require they all come from the prison roster of stuff, and have a selection. Allow folks to send to limited family members: Parents, spouses, and domestic partners would get it if they lived together and had help from the person before the crime. Underage children could get it automatically (and probably should get it if the person had parental rights or child support to pay). Again, there would be no cash and reasonable limits on things from the commissary.

Everything else can be saved so that folks have a good start when they get out.

As far as bribing corrections officers: I'd honestly say part of the answer to this would be to train folks well (more than 2 months of training), pay them well enough to get good candidates, and make sure to keep the prison's well-staffed without relying on overtime. This is a hurdle, though, as most of the places will say they can't afford it.

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#152

Post by drivingmenuts » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 9:10 PM UTC

If they’re not being paid and the work they’re doing is not helping them to get a job afterwards, then they have every right to protest. In theory at least, they are supposed to be working towards rehabilitation, but it’s turning out to be slave labor in practice.

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#153

Post by wongarsu » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 9:11 PM UTC

ryandrake wrote: post #134

makecheck wrote: post #41

I never understood the idea of paying prisoners absurdly little “because prison”. Why, because they’re not paying rent? And there’s no way they will find a job on Day 1 after release, meaning they essentially have not enough money while in prison, no way to save money, and poverty at release. Given that, they’ll probably be forced to steal to survive after release and...end up back in prison. It’s inhumane garbage, a…

Your argument assumes that the goal of prisons is to keep their customers from returning to prison.

It is clearly the government's responsibility to align the prison's incentives with the best outcome for society. That includes people not reoffending.

You are right that currently the US fails in this regard, but that doesn't mean it has to be that way.

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#154

Post by meowface » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 9:13 PM UTC

kartan wrote: post #110

rayiner wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Arguing that it’s good for them is paternalistic bullshit. The same argument could justify slavery. If prisons are cash strapped, whose responsibility is that? I believe society put these people away and we should pay for it. Either it’s worth it to us or it’s not. I'm somewhat sympathetic to the argument, but why is the focus solely on what is "good for them?" Discussions of over-incarceration aside, there is a le…

> --why shouldn't they be forced to take on some of their own upkeep? If keeping people in prison is an economic gain for society, you are going to send people to prison whatever they deserve it or not. And that is the case in the USA. "He was found guilty in February of racketeering for taking a $1 million kickback from the builder of for-profit prisons for juveniles. Ciavarella who left the bench over two years ago…

As disgusting as that was, at least some justice was served in the end. The judges were sentenced to 17.5 and 28 years, respectively. That pales in comparison to the cumulative prison time they unjustly imposed on others, but it does show judges aren't above the law.

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#155

Post by goobynight » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 9:15 PM UTC

RIMR wrote: post #144

TheSoftwareGuy wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except there is over a century of precedent, and no court is going to overturn that now. The 13th amendment is not some new discovery that the courts are waiting for someone to make an argument based on

You couldn't be more wrong. The supreme court could reinterpret this, and require forced labor to be a part of the sentence, not just allowed to be used against anyone in prison. Precedent changes over time. This idea that the current interpretation of the Constitution is immutable is defeatist and foolish.

The supreme court could reinterpret anything.

The trend at the moment is that they aren't interfering with past rulings and that's not about to change with the new addition.

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#156

Post by woah » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 9:18 PM UTC

alpha_squared wrote: post #115

PurpleBoxDragon wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it immoral by default, or due to implementation? For example, consider a prison which forces (which I'll define as however the prisons currently gets inmates to work the jobs) it's inmates to attend classes to learn job skills and avoid behaviors that landed them in prison. Would this not also be a form of slavery given they are forced to attend? Slavery isn't defined by the slave doing something useful to the own…

> For example, consider a prison which forces ... it's [sic] inmates to attend classes to learn job skills and avoid behaviors that landed them in prison. Would this not also be a form of slavery given they are forced to attend? Slavery isn't defined by the slave doing something useful to the owner. A slave is still a slave even if they are doing nothing or if they are being commanded to improve themselves. And in th…

What are you talking about?

> In a broader sense, however, the word slavery may also refer to any situation in which an individual is de facto forced to work against their own will.

Seems like what they were saying fits well with this.

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#157

Post by sjwright » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 9:19 PM UTC

celim307 wrote: post #76

TaylorAlexander wrote: post #10

A relevant snippet: “California inmates were sent off to fight what has become the largest wildfire in the state’s history for just $1 an hour. These firefighters, who volunteered for a vocational training program offered by the California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation, are often disqualified from the work after release because a required credential is denied to anyone with a criminal record. Hundreds…

Not to mention, who can compete with a jail offering labor for 1$ an hour? It's unfair to both the prisoners and anyone else in the manual labor business

I doubt their labor is costing clients $1. The prison is certainly charging a lot more than that and pocketing the difference.

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#158

Post by PhasmaFelis » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 9:19 PM UTC

pmarreck wrote: post #123

makecheck wrote: post #41

I never understood the idea of paying prisoners absurdly little “because prison”. Why, because they’re not paying rent? And there’s no way they will find a job on Day 1 after release, meaning they essentially have not enough money while in prison, no way to save money, and poverty at release. Given that, they’ll probably be forced to steal to survive after release and...end up back in prison. It’s inhumane garbage, a…

I don’t disagree but just wanted to say something: The whole point of money was to make it possible for 2+ good actors to do legal (and different) work/goods/services for each other while profiting. Most people who end up in prison were “bad actors” by definition. The system was not benefiting from them. And thus I can’t help thinking that they don’t really deserve any of the system’s monetary medium of exchange.

It's not about what criminals deserve, it's about how to make sure they stop being criminals. A broke ex-con without a support network is much more likely to return to crime just to survive. Helping them avoid that is a net gain to society as a whole, whether they deserve it or not.

Focusing on what people "deserve", instead of on what's best for society, is the reason the US has the worst health care in the western world while also spending more tax money on health care per capita than anyone else on the planet. We'd rather spend 10 dollars making sure no one ever gets more than their fair share than risk one dollar going to someone who doesn't "deserve" it.

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#159

Post by johnchristopher » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 9:20 PM UTC

noobermin wrote: post #56

johnchristopher wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you implying one could be convicted and sentenced to be a slave ?

No. I am implying they weren't sentenced to be a firemen or a slave so they shouldn't be. People have been sentenced to do community service which I generally don't think is compensated. Going to be honest, I am ignorant and haven't been incarcerated so I am lucky, but from what I can tell community service tends to be a lighter punishment than prison, and doesn't tend to be as exploitative as the uncompensated labor…

Sorry, chalk it up to fatigue and the consequent decline of my comprehension skills. I don't know why I misunderstand that sentence so badly.

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#160

Post by pm90 » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 9:21 PM UTC

fipple wrote: post #107

makecheck wrote: post #41

I never understood the idea of paying prisoners absurdly little “because prison”. Why, because they’re not paying rent? And there’s no way they will find a job on Day 1 after release, meaning they essentially have not enough money while in prison, no way to save money, and poverty at release. Given that, they’ll probably be forced to steal to survive after release and...end up back in prison. It’s inhumane garbage, a…

I think they should pay rent and should be paid proper wages, to accelerate reintroduction to society. Don’t do any work? Get the worst cell, with rent written off. Work as a firefighter? Get $30/hour which you can use to get better living conditions and better food in prison.

Right... and who will decide that? Prison Wardens aren't exactly known to be fair arbiters of such things.

Apologies, I don't mean to come off as pessimistic. But its clear to me that prison for most folks meant a place for really bad people so nobody in regular society gives a shit for the plight of prisoners and over time it has created a system where its hard to introduce any meaningful reform.