National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions • Hacker News Board

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#161

Post by nrb » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 9:22 PM UTC

pmiller2 wrote: post #143

nrb wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure you do have a choice; you can go live in the wilderness and live entirely self-sufficiently. Just because a choice is unreasonable to you doesn't make it less of a choice. More importantly (and my entire point) is that you have a choice of exactly what kind of work you want to do. That self-determination differentiates you from a prisoner or slave.

You’re really reaching here. Who’s to say I have the skills to do that? Where do I get the basic supplies to do so, without working for money? And on whose land do I do it? What do I do when I need medical care? What if I already have a chronic illness that needs periodic attention (as, in fact, I do.) You’re telling me that going off into the woods to die is a viable alternative to working a job for money to live in…

I responded with an extreme example because of your extreme conflation of "needing to do some type of work of your choosing" with wage slavery. You seem to be ignoring the central point that you GET TO CHOOSE THAT WORK.

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#162

Post by angersock » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 9:26 PM UTC

emodendroket wrote: post #97

fzeroracer wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Prisons should absolutely offer gainful employment because that's one of the best ways they can be reintegrated into society which I would hope is the goal of prison! If prisoners could be given a living wage then I would bet you would have less of them returning to selling drugs etc in order to survive because they leave prison with literally nothing to their name.

Well, that's the core of the disagreement -- some people think prisons should be purely punitive.

Those people are spiteful twats.

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#163

Post by pmiller2 » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 9:26 PM UTC

nrb wrote: post #161

pmiller2 wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re really reaching here. Who’s to say I have the skills to do that? Where do I get the basic supplies to do so, without working for money? And on whose land do I do it? What do I do when I need medical care? What if I already have a chronic illness that needs periodic attention (as, in fact, I do.) You’re telling me that going off into the woods to die is a viable alternative to working a job for money to live in…

I responded with an extreme example because of your extreme conflation of "needing to do some type of work of your choosing" with wage slavery. You seem to be ignoring the central point that you GET TO CHOOSE THAT WORK.

You said I get to choose exactly what type of work I want to do. That’s like saying I can choose to be executed by the gas chamber or lethal injection. The consequences of not working, as someone who is not independently wealthy are so extreme as to make that not a valid choice.

You are still begging the question. Do I get to choose not to work, or not? “Just go off and die,” on the streets or in the wilderness is not a valid choice.

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#164

Post by jklinger410 » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 9:27 PM UTC

nrb wrote: post #133

pmiller2 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not being independently wealthy, I don’t have a choice to work or not. In that sense, if I wanted not to work, then, yes, I would be working against my will. See https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wage_slavery Edit: I should clarify, I have the choice not to work and be homeless, but that’s such a deplorable choice, it doesn’t constitute a real, free choice.

Sure you do have a choice; you can go live in the wilderness and live entirely self-sufficiently. Just because a choice is unreasonable to you doesn't make it less of a choice. More importantly (and my entire point) is that you have a choice of exactly what kind of work you want to do. That self-determination differentiates you from a prisoner or slave.

There seems to be a huge break in the "it's unreasonable to do x therefore" in this argument, and many in American society.

If the prisoners who didn't work were next to starving, and sleeping on the ground, you would sure have someone come in asserting that they are "forced" to work. Because they are OSTENSIBLY being forced to work by the choices they are offered.

This type of pedantry goes beyond semantics and into deeper meaning that is very hard to communicate.

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#165

Post by emodendroket » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 9:27 PM UTC

angersock wrote: post #162

emodendroket wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, that's the core of the disagreement -- some people think prisons should be purely punitive.

Those people are spiteful twats.

I'm not defending the position but it is, for example, officially the position of the state of Florida.

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#166

Post by wu-ikkyu » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 9:30 PM UTC

omegaworks wrote: post #63

throwaway0x7647 wrote: post #53

My brother just went to jail and I’m just learning how crazy some things are there. They keep the bright lights on until midnight, and turn them back on at 4am (and require the inmates to get up). No one can properly function after repeated nights of less than 4 hours of sleep. I seriously think the jail just wants to push people to misbehave so they stay there longer and the jail can reap more profits.

>I seriously think the jail just wants to push people to misbehave so they stay there longer and the jail can reap more profits. Bingo. Private prisons have no incentive to reduce recidivism.

Why is this being downvoted? Jon Oliver did a bit a while back on private prisons. The investigation uncovered an investor sales pitch which bragged of "high recidivism rates"

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#167

Post by rosser » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 9:30 PM UTC

uxp100 wrote: post #117

vageli wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One is familial, the other is a business relationship.

So your definition of labor refers only to, for lack of a better term, "work" done in a business relationship? Then I don't think it really applies to this situation, since just as familial relations are superseding "business" relations in your example, certainly the prison relations change the nature of the business relations drastically. But I think this is certainly labor, but the distinction between labor and cho…

I'm not 'vageli, but my definitions are that "labor" is a primarily economic form of activity, while "chores" aren't.

Both of them involve "work", but the objectives — the reasons the people doing the work are doing it — aren't the same.

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#168

Post by jklinger410 » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 9:31 PM UTC

pmiller2 wrote: post #38

whatshisface wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If a non-incarcerated person finds it necessary to work in order to pay for their food and housing, are they being forced to work against their will?

If I didn’t have to, I wouldn’t be working in the sense that I do now. I’d be pursuing interests that may or may not make money, but would bring me personal fulfillment.

If we chase this line of logic we will find that we are all slaves to something or another.

It's about whether or not we want society to force certain types of slavery. We've barred "defacto" slavery, but what about these myriad other forms?

Dragging old concepts out of their graves by repurposing words we thought we already knew the definitions is one way that progressives are trying to re-try, or appeal, certain concepts.

This one being modern imprisonment. I don't think the term slavery should alarm anyone in this instance, but it will, which is how we get progress in 2018.

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#169

Post by tryitnow » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 9:32 PM UTC

Paying prisoners absurdly low wages teaches them that honest labor doesn't pay. Isn't this exactly the opposite of what we want them to learn?

I readily that my emotional side wants to prison to be as punitive as possible. But my rational side just wants to live in a society with less crime. And teaching prisoners that honest labor pays is an important lesson in getting them to behave themselves when they get out.

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#170

Post by sdenton4 » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 9:33 PM UTC

sjwright wrote: post #157

celim307 wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to mention, who can compete with a jail offering labor for 1$ an hour? It's unfair to both the prisoners and anyone else in the manual labor business

I doubt their labor is costing clients $1. The prison is certainly charging a lot more than that and pocketing the difference.

It's the same effect. If you cut labor costs by a factor of ten (or more), you can undercut the competition easily and pocket the difference. Hence, anti-competitive.