YouTube Bans Alex Jones, Following Facebook's and Apple's Lead • Hacker News Board

Re: YouTube Bans Alex Jones, Following Facebook's and Apple's Lead

#141

Post by ergothus » Tue, Aug 07, 2018, 5:01 AM UTC

mcphage wrote: post #140

ergothus wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I play a mental version of what you list every time someone raises the "we should ban/disallow/make illegal..." concept. Generally, I'm hearing this about topics where I'm in strong agreement. Yes, we SHOULD take action against these attempts to exploit our inherent logical weaknesses for the promotion of values we disapprove of (sexism, racism, hatred, violence, etc). BUT...before I agree, I like to say "How is this…

> "How is this different than banning speech/actions promoting something society generally favors but historically did not. [...]" Are you asking, how is banning someone for peddling hateful conspiracy theories different from banning someone for supporting human rights and dignity? You don't... I dunno, see a few differences between those two messages? Or is it the future bit that you're worried about—you think that…

> Are you asking, how is banning someone for peddling hateful conspiracy theories different from banning someone for supporting human rights and dignity?

No, I'm saying "what rules do we create that would apply to prevent horrible speech now that wouldn't also prevent speech of people doing good but upsetting things?" In the past people in favor of desegragation or womens suffrage or interracial marriage or other "good" things were regarded as trying to overturn the public good. How do we find rules that permit us to say "no!" in the name of good and not have those rules turned against good disturbances of the status quo?

I think there is an answer, or at least an improvement over nothing, but I dont think it is an easy answer, and I dont know what that answer is...yet. meanwhile I try to consider how rules can backfire when such things come up. I shed no tears for Jones, but I'm also glad the issue wasn't easy.

Silencing should not be easy, even though speech empowers jerks and bullies, because speech also empowers so much that has improved the world.

Re: YouTube Bans Alex Jones, Following Facebook's and Apple's Lead

#142

Post by rurounijones » Tue, Aug 07, 2018, 5:54 AM UTC

whatyoucantsay wrote: post #91

rurounijones wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You cherry picked and forgot the first line which puts the rest in context. > You're making the mistake of thinking that Alex Jones and his followers are rational and good-faith actors - a pre-requisite for debate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance https://slate.com/technology/2018/07/the-askhistorians-subre...

> You cherry picked and forgot the first line which puts the rest in context. How uncharitable of you to write that. I didn't "forget" it. It wasn't relevant to my point. The first line was specific to this situation, but the final two I quoted represent a very universal and timeless position. In fact, ancient Athens suffered greatly when "silence the voices of the enemies of democracy" became the dominant position i…

You're "point" was a snarky off the cuff one-liner.

Universal and Timeless position is a stretch. It is not black and white, it is grey and the first line in OPs comment put context to that grey.

While it would be lovely to have a democracy with an educated rational electorate resilent to hateful demagogues and other threats to the stability of that democracy, we are not there. In that situation you can let it fester or reduce the impact.

Yes it can be abused and we have to be careful. But we are in a Paradox of Tolerance situation.

Rather than state what has already been said: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17702464 is a good summary.

Re: YouTube Bans Alex Jones, Following Facebook's and Apple's Lead

#143

Post by buth_lika » Tue, Aug 07, 2018, 6:37 AM UTC

Covering for ElsaGate while patting each other on the back. Fantastic.

Re: YouTube Bans Alex Jones, Following Facebook's and Apple's Lead

#144

Post by vixen99 » Tue, Aug 07, 2018, 7:02 AM UTC

iosDrone wrote: post #123

jimejim wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have more faith in human rationality than I do at this point. Making his content harder to get will reduce his legitimacy. Con men and frauds should not be treated with respect or debated. Also, Jones specifically used his platform to abuse people, so this is not just about being full of shit all the time.

"We only burn the bad books!"

You sum it all up very nicely!

Re: YouTube Bans Alex Jones, Following Facebook's and Apple's Lead

#145

Post by vixen99 » Tue, Aug 07, 2018, 7:26 AM UTC

mirimir wrote: post #65

Tomminn wrote: post #12

From Wikipedia: "The InfoWars website receives approximately 10 million monthly visits, making it more visited than some mainstream news websites such as The Economist and Newsweek." This bothers me. Say what you like about his content, but it is not fringe. He is the preferred "thinker" of a significant fraction of the population. If you think the solution is to deplatform him, you're thinking about the problem wron…

> So if Alex Jones makes your blood boil, then put that emotion to work. Raise his platform. Discuss him. Debunk his ideas one by one. Except that doesn't work with trolls. Many of his followers are just in it for the lulz. Engagement just provides more fodder for trolling. You gotta just ignore trolls. And if you can, deny them a platform.

So presumably, had you sufficient power (in government), this is what you would do. Kind of you to check something out so that I don't have to? Is that the logic?

Re: YouTube Bans Alex Jones, Following Facebook's and Apple's Lead

#146

Post by jaredklewis » Tue, Aug 07, 2018, 8:36 AM UTC

Tomminn wrote: post #12

From Wikipedia: "The InfoWars website receives approximately 10 million monthly visits, making it more visited than some mainstream news websites such as The Economist and Newsweek." This bothers me. Say what you like about his content, but it is not fringe. He is the preferred "thinker" of a significant fraction of the population. If you think the solution is to deplatform him, you're thinking about the problem wron…

> Discuss him. Debunk his ideas one by one. Use whichever tools appeal to you. If youtube wants to help, then youtube algorithms should be tweaked to encourage people to view both sides of the debate.

How would you “debunk” Alex Jones? Certainly not with rational arguments, as if his viewers were at all receptive to reason, they wouldn’t be InfoWars viewers. I am not a regular viewer, but I have seen a few episodes and that I saw, Alex Jones makes no use logic, reasoning, verifiable evidence, or journalistic standards.

So what’s the plan? Counter Alex Jones with an equally unscrupulous manipulator from “our side?”

I think there are valid debates to be had about how much speech should or should not be regulated, even on non-government platforms. But the idea that Alex Jones could be “debunked” seems absurd to me.

Re: YouTube Bans Alex Jones, Following Facebook's and Apple's Lead

#147

Post by krapp » Tue, Aug 07, 2018, 10:33 AM UTC

dmix wrote: post #137

krapp wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>First, they came for Alex Jones. You know, it's interesting how often this poem, written to warn people about the dangers of the Nazis, is almost exclusively invoked nowadays in defense of Nazis and people who share their ideology. I mean, I get the free speech argument... even though this is less an argument and more a lazy attempt at pseudointellectual concern trolling... but why is it only ever a slippery slope t…

> but why is it only ever a slippery slope to come for the Nazis, but never a slippery slope to let the Nazis come for us? The more important question is why it suddenly becomes not a slippery slope when it comes to Nazis? The danger comes from inaction not our ability to question every action. Which is the very good reason ACLU has defended neo-nazis right to hold protest for decades (including defending the Unite t…

The fact that you couldn't defend freedom of speech without implying that the only real threat is leftists leads me to suspect that this is issue is driven more by partisanship and identity politics than people want to admit.

Re: YouTube Bans Alex Jones, Following Facebook's and Apple's Lead

#148

Post by tchaffee » Tue, Aug 07, 2018, 12:16 PM UTC

slededit wrote: post #112

gamblor956 wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the days of the First Amendment...newspapers did actively censor their opposition. Hell, the First Congress, most of whom participated in the drafting of the Bill of Rights and its ratification by the States, passed the Sedition Act, clamping down on free speech in a way not seen since outside of WWII. As for making political affiliation a protected class...that wouldn't shield Jones. He's being kicked off for sla…

I speak of paper mills not newspapers. This is analogue to DNS providers and other internet infrastructure providers participating in censorship. It would be a clear breach of first amendment rights to force someone with editorial control to print something.

Horrible analogy. YouTube, Facebook, and Twitter are nothing like DNS and other internet infrastructure, nor are they like paper mills.

Alex Jones runs a website using DNS and internet infrastructure and gets 10 million monthly visitors. Where's the censorship?

Re: YouTube Bans Alex Jones, Following Facebook's and Apple's Lead

#149

Post by tchaffee » Tue, Aug 07, 2018, 12:35 PM UTC

dmix wrote: post #135

tchaffee wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The ideal is very clear: "Congress shall make no law... abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press". That's it. It forbids Congress from making laws. Any ideal beyond that is fully imagined and does not exist as part of the Constitution. And we've been doing fine for well over 200 years with that simple ideal alone. With the internet and the ability to easily create a website or blog, people have more means of…

> Fifty years ago he would have been the kooky guy living at the end of your street and no one would know who he is. Are you suggesting guys like him weren't famous, wealthy, and had popular speaking tours across the country? If so, you're sadly mistaken about the reach of even wrong ideas. Quackery and supernatural stuff was extremely popular among the middle class America in the 1800s and well into the 1970s. The i…

> Are you suggesting guys like him weren't famous, wealthy, and had popular speaking tours across the country?

Yes. I'm suggesting that far fewer of them had access to the potential to be heard. Every nut job and his brother now has a blog, website, YouTube channel, etc.

> The internet has given individuals a wider platform,

Yes. What I said above. A much wider platform. Instead of an obscure book hidden away on a bookshelf, these guys have a potential audience of the much of the globe. With cheap mobile that reach even extends to very poor countries with little access to education or even books.

> but it hasn't changed the amount of individuals (ie, audience size) willing to consume this stuff...

I'm not convinced that's true and to be convinced I'd have to see some actual numbers. There are LOADS of people these days willing to participate in confirmation bias and the internet makes that far easier. The very few conspiracy theorists I knew 30 years ago had to work hard at their research and I kind of respected the dedication. These days if you want to believe in chem trails it's just a simple search term, click, and copypasta away. We've automated the production of conspiracy theorists.

> We can't ban our way out of this problem.

We aren't. Alex Jones still has a website with 10 million monthly visitors. He has a radio show and publishes books. I'm assuming that if Facebook, YouTube, or even I wanted to publish something on Alex Jones' website, he would "censor" us.

I'm not even suggesting that we should try to "solve" the problem of conspiracy theorists. I'm suggesting that companies should have the right to free speech. If YouTube doesn't want to host the garbage ideas of Alex Jones, they should go right ahead and ban him. If Alex Jones' doesn't want to host Facebook's content or my content on his website, he should feel free to ban us. Where is the actual problem?

Re: YouTube Bans Alex Jones, Following Facebook's and Apple's Lead

#150

Post by acct1771 » Tue, Aug 07, 2018, 1:10 PM UTC

mcphage wrote: post #139

acct1771 wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, you're right, inhibit freedom of expression. There's no way that can go wrong after a while.

> There's no way that can go wrong after a while. Well, giving him whatever platform he wants has already gone wrong right now. So if deplatforming him goes wrong in the future , and puts us back into the same situation we found ourselves in before today, at least we'll have between now and then to enjoy things, and come up with a plan C.

How has it gone wrong?

What consequences have there been?