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YouTube Bans Alex Jones, Following Facebook's and Apple's Lead

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Re: YouTube Bans Alex Jones, Following Facebook's and Apple's Lead

#81
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is something else to keep in mind which is that the government can evade the 1st amendment by pressuring companies to take action against speech it doesn’t like. “Hostile environment” laws around workplace conduct are a good example of this; the strict interpretation of the first amendment might not allow the government to directly regulate such speech by employees, but the threat of EEOC lawsuits can compel co…

There is something else to keep in mind which is that the government can evade the 1st amendment by pressuring companies to take action against speech it doesn’t like. No, what you have described is a free speech violation and US courts have already addressed this point many times. And you clearly misunderstand why hostile environment laws have survived First Amendment lawsuits. The government cannot interfere with t…

I linked to an article by a law professor explaining the issues.

Courts cannot always address such issues anyway due to the doctrine of “standing”. For instance, government in the 90s pressured the video game industry to self regulate by establishing a rating system and prohibiting the sale of M rated games to minors in various chain stores. If the government themselves had passed such a law it would have been subject to lawsuit under the 1A, but because it was a voluntary action by the industry there is no one to sue (after all, by suing the industry who put these standards in place, one could say that you’re now violating their right to free speech and association!)

But to summarize it simply, the government cannot outlaw using a racial slur under common 1st amendment doctrine. However it can outlaw a company allowing an employee to use a racial slur in the workplace. While this is a good result (I don’t want to work somewhere where my coworkers use such slurs) it’s an interesting example of how the power of government is less limited by 1A than one might think at first.

Similarly, YouTube, Facebook, etc have been getting a lot of flack from the government lately over Russian bots, trolls, etc. Moves like these to boot InfoWars could be smart business to placate the Democrats who may soon be in power. Infowars has been awful trash for years, and plenty of awful stuff remains on their platforms after all.

Re: YouTube Bans Alex Jones, Following Facebook's and Apple's Lead

#82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're making the mistake of thinking that Alex Jones and his followers are rational and good-faith actors - a pre-requisite for debate. The best thing to do is just silence their voices; no ifs, ands, or buts. Remember, these people are against the idea of democracy.

> The best thing to do is just silence their voices, no ifs, ands or buts. > Remember, these people are against the idea of democracy. Oh, the irony of following the one sentence with the other.

You cherry picked and forgot the first line which puts the rest in context.

> You're making the mistake of thinking that Alex Jones and his followers are rational and good-faith actors - a pre-requisite for debate

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance

https://slate.com/technology/2018/07/the-askhistorians-subre...

Re: YouTube Bans Alex Jones, Following Facebook's and Apple's Lead

#83
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The article explicitly says he's banned because of TOS violations. The article is not clear about what those are, but I assume they fall under hate speech and harassment. Not at all a fan of Mr Jones (the little I've seen makes him seem like a garden variety nutcase peddling inane conspiracy theories), but aren't we just a little bit concerned when someone is banned on the same day by all the major internet content…

Alex Jones has openly advocated for the murder of multiple people, including both our last president and his would-be party successor. He has openly incited violent acts against an innocent business, whilst also slandering their character and reputation, for profit. He has accused parents of murdered children of making it up , for profit. He hasn't just "said things", he's committed acts which have had resulted in si…

Is prosecution underway? Much of what you mention is surely illegal, even in the US.

Re: YouTube Bans Alex Jones, Following Facebook's and Apple's Lead

#84
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Say what you like about his content, but it is not fringe. This is a man spouting off that there is evidence that Michelle Obama is a man [1]. If that's not a fringe idea I'd like to know what you think one is. To me a fringe idea is one that is so obviously wrong that it is not worth considering its merits. Doubtless there are many fools willing to consider the 'facts' surrounding Michelle Obama's gender but they ar…

Okay I feed the troll. So how much of the proof we got that Michelle Obama IS actually a women? Her look? Many transgander look much more womanish than she does. Same sex marriage? Could be? Have you seen her birth certificate (original, NOT the copy) that you can genuinely say she is a female? Yes I know she has the kids... okay so let me see their DNA test that actually they belong to Michelle as a parent. Exactly;…

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. The validity of the claim lies on Jones and his ilk, not on I or other reasonably minded persons.

Re: YouTube Bans Alex Jones, Following Facebook's and Apple's Lead

#85
post #3

In other discussions about this action, I've seen lots of confusion about what the 1st Amendment guarantees. Too many people think it guarantees an outcome: that the government must protect your right to free speech and make sure you have a platform for free speech. When in fact it's almost the opposite: it prevents the government from interfering with free speech, specifically Congress can not pass any laws that int…

The first amendment represents an ideal. An ideal the country is walking back from as it discovers a large faction does not share the same morals. The decision to silence instead of engage will lead to disintegration of the country if its not dealt with.

First Amendment is about government action, not self-motivated private/corporation action.

Facebook, Spotify, and Apple realized that continuing to allow Alex Jones to remain on their platforms would result in substantial harm to the commercial viability of their platforms, as a result of boycotts, lawsuits, etc. by the 99% of people that Alex Jones spends his life spewing lies about.

It was an easy financial decision. Hell, they could have faced absolutely massive shareholder lawsuits if they hadn't kicked him off their platforms.

Re: YouTube Bans Alex Jones, Following Facebook's and Apple's Lead

#86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More likely it makes him harder to find and limits his reach more.

He's atop Google search today, and articles on his site about "the purge" have far more engagement than others, so apparently many are seeking him out in light of the news.

And not one person is getting him as a suggested video on YouTube, shared on Facebook, etc...

Deplatforming is effective.

Re: YouTube Bans Alex Jones, Following Facebook's and Apple's Lead

#87
post #12

From Wikipedia: "The InfoWars website receives approximately 10 million monthly visits, making it more visited than some mainstream news websites such as The Economist and Newsweek." This bothers me. Say what you like about his content, but it is not fringe. He is the preferred "thinker" of a significant fraction of the population. If you think the solution is to deplatform him, you're thinking about the problem wron…

Theres lots to unpack here.

> He is an opportunity. By becoming a lightening rod and focal point for a large fraction of a country's misguided thinking, he has made that misguided thinking more fragile. Easier to dislodge. Because now you just need to find a combination of words that helps his followers see him for what he actually is.

His followers see themselves in him. Attack him and they will feel attacked. Attacked people don’t change their minds, they dig into their beliefs harder. The only way to change peoples minds is to realize that you can’t. You can only make it safe for them to change their own minds.

> And if you succeed, everyone who sees will get a lesson in thinking more clearly. They will be more resilient to a future charlatan.

Not without first accepting that they themselves were wrong. This is hard. People see them selves as right. To admit they are wrong is to destroy a little part of themselves (ego).

> So if Alex Jones makes your blood boil, then put that emotion to work. Raise his platform. Discuss him. Debunk his ideas one by one. Use whichever tools appeal to you. If youtube wants to help, then youtube algorithms should be tweaked to encourage people to view both sides of the debate.

Rational debate doesn’t change peoples minds unless they identify as rational people. Then being rationally coherent is important, more so than being right, so they can change their minds. Not everyone holds being rationally coherent that close to their identity.

People will often just dig in harder to avoid being wrong.

For every 100 people you expose him to, some N% find them selves agreeing. The more you talk about him, the more you share and “raise his platform” the more followers you get him.

Simple marketing funnels.

Persistent societal tolerance requires one thing, vehement intolerance of intolerant people.

It’s some prolog level recursive logic.

Re: YouTube Bans Alex Jones, Following Facebook's and Apple's Lead

#88

I don't necessarily like this action. People are quick to point out that FB and Youtube are private entities and such but the reality is that they've become so ubiquitous in our lives that if they start censorship based on the company's preferred politics, beliefs, etc. than it will have an effect on all of us. Can mobile apps (like WhatsApp) inspect messages and decide to boot users if they're saying things that are…

Same here. I don't agree with anything he says, but banning him from these platforms sets a bad precedent. The way to fight ignorance is with education. If anything, this will enforce their persecution complex. Now Alex Jones will say, "See? Big media doesn't want you to know the things I'm telling you." And he'll be right.

> The way to fight ignorance is with education.

And ignorance fights back with education. Removing Thomas Jefferson from textbooks for example. Or replacing evolution with creationism / intelligent design theory.

https://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/13/education/13texas.html

People rewrite education to suit their political slants. You ain't gonna win in education until you win at politics.

Re: YouTube Bans Alex Jones, Following Facebook's and Apple's Lead

#89

I think the reason why Alex Jones became popular is because the mainstream news websites like CNN and even sections of the NYT became more Jones-like in their reporting. When people are just choosing between different sensationalist conspiracy theory websites it becomes much more challenging for ordinary people to pick a quality outlet. The thing is that most of the web and the printed word is spam that will actively…

The thing is that most of the web and the printed word is spam that will actively confuse you the more that you read it. Compare the newspaper to a cookbook. The cookbook, if it's good, can be tested for effectiveness quite readily even allowing for variations in things like your ingredients and how your oven functions as compared to the one in the author's test kitchen.

It's a good thing that I have a memory and can compare interpretations and predictions made by different outlets in the media with subsequent events to evaluate their reliability.

Re: YouTube Bans Alex Jones, Following Facebook's and Apple's Lead

#90

First, they came for Alex Jones.

He's not the first, but I see where you coming from. My immediate questions are 1) are they payment processors going to ban him as well and are we going to have to endure the 'its a private company' argument ad naseum 2) how deep is the purge going to go?

I think Alex Jones is mostly right on a some accounts (9/11) and pretty much everybody in this forum is acting like Bolsheviks, its quite sad.

Reminds me of the time the Canadian mail denied David Irving a postal address but that's another story.

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