Earlier quoted context omitted.
Raised in China here --- still largely prefer driving + walking on US roads.
I've lived in both and I definitely prefer walking on Chinese roads. Most US drivers, except for those in New York, are largely unaware of pedestrians, bikes, and motorcycles. I find it much more dangerous to ride a motorcycle in the US because so many drivers don't expect it and do things like turning right without looking behind them. However, I do generally prefer driving in the US. The only issue I have is with t…
I’m leaving China
191–200 of 219 posts
Re: I’m leaving China
#192I never thought quite as broadly as the author, but what he says is consistent with one thing I observed -- driving and pedestrian behavior. In China drivers and pedestrians are both better and worse than those in the US. I found drivers and pedestrians both to be much more aware and had more agency about what they needed to to be safe. Whereas in the US we assume a lot more that the rules of the road are going to be…
Having driven in both countries, I totally agree, with one slight caveat. In the past, I had the opinion that due to individualism versus collectivism, US drivers tend to take things a lot more personally. If you accidentally cut someone off or honk at them, US drivers feel it's a direct assault on them. I've witnessed and even personally encountered some scary road rage in the US, but never in China. However, after…
My experience tells me that is just a matter of scale and goes for a lot of "willingness to get confrontational". When $THE_SITUATION happens once every month you can initiate a fight or at least threaten, when that happens 4 times a day, you either stop or will be stopped.
Re: I’m leaving China
#193I agree to most of the things the author said (except for America being the center of the world and a moral lighthouse for everyone of course). But what I think will get overlooked by most people is the beginning where he notes that the chinese he has met in his daily life are very nice people. Do not forget that they are the same as you. It sounds obvious but I think most people don’t realize how similar we all are.…
How can you still hold this belief after reading articles like this?
> It sounds obvious but I think most people don’t realize how similar we all are.
That's more sensible.
Indeed, if any person from country was raised in country , they are going to be generally like others born in country , but only if they were raised there. This is what constitutes culture, and all groups of people on the planet do not all share the same culture, as the author pointed out.
Re: I’m leaving China
#194Earlier quoted context omitted.
And yet there is outrage in Chinese social media when that happens. So "not all Chinese"?
There are also a lot of news reports in China about the opposite happening. Where groups of people will get together to save someone. There was even one incident where a group of people lifted a car up to save the girl that was run over. Or how a taxi driver jumps into a manhole to save a girl who fell in. Or how a group of delivery guys caught a child that was hanging on a several story perch. However, those news re…
Actually, all we see are the things we see. No one has a terribly precise way of knowing what the real world distribution of good and bad behavior are, yet there is no shortage of people who believe very strongly that they do. It's one of those quirks of the human mind, but it can be overcome with effort.
Re: I’m leaving China
#195Regarding the line-cutting/cheating he talks about. I like to distinguish between "culture" and something vaguer, which is what type of equilibrium someone is trapped in. I started to think this way when I lived in Argentina. Argentina is very corrupt, but just across the river is Uruguay...the least corrupt country in Latin America by some metrics. Argentines and Uruguayos are culturally quite similar (the relations…
I lived in Chengdu 2011-2016 (and am happy I did) with my wife and three children.
Very very often there would be a mob instead of a queue, notably at a weighing station during shopping for fruits & veggies. I noticed that almost always, the force of example crystallized a queue.
All I had to do was visibly step behind someone near the front, and people would follow my example. A queue would form, and members of the queue would start enforcing it on new arrivals.
In short, people secretly wanted a queue, but they hadn't yet formed one.
Re: I’m leaving China
#196I agree to most of the things the author said (except for America being the center of the world and a moral lighthouse for everyone of course). But what I think will get overlooked by most people is the beginning where he notes that the chinese he has met in his daily life are very nice people. Do not forget that they are the same as you. It sounds obvious but I think most people don’t realize how similar we all are.…
> Do not forget that they are the same as you. How can you still hold this belief after reading articles like this? > It sounds obvious but I think most people don’t realize how similar we all are. That's more sensible. Indeed, if any person from country was raised in country , they are going to be generally like others born in country , but only if they were raised there . This is what constitutes culture , and all…
I'll push back on this. Spending time in China helped me look at myself and break down what was universally human and what was learned culture. For example, the story about the missionary giving a talk at the local English Corner about "the meaning of life"
> He said he knew what people would say having lived in China for sometime but even so was stunned at how deeply and rigidly held the belief that making money was the entire meaning of life. There was no value system. There was no exogenously held right or wrong, only whether you made money.
Yes, people espouse that. Even to themselves.
But spend some time with them and find out what makes them happy and sad, and what they want to make money for, and it's the same as a westerner (and I suspect the same as any mentally healthy human on the planet): having basic autonomy in your life, developing as a person, quality time with friends and family, helping each other, a chance to raise children peacefully and otherwise contribute to society. Those are the things people genuinely want.
I think people universally find obsession with wealth to be unsatisfying, but it's sometimes only after a learning experience. They may try it for a while, but they realize it's a socialized value, not an intrinsic one.
To overgeneralize, China as a whole is still at an earlier stage of learning about wealth than the US or Europe or Japan or Korea. But they are in the process of learning the lessons of wealth and will, I believe, get there faster than we did, simply because everything is changing faster there than it did here.
Edit: And we in the West are not done learning either!
Re: I’m leaving China
#197As a speaker of mandarin (Chinese wife) and having lived in China for a year, I really resonate with this. One thing I try to explain to friends is the observation (and generalisation) of the tier of social behaviour. In short, if the person is a stranger you are total apathetic to them. If they are an acquaintance or friend you treat them kindly at face value. If they are family... you treat them with a disturbing b…
>"if the person is a stranger you are total apathetic to them." This in particular is so foreign to me, that it's actually hard to wrap my head around.
Farmboy here.
Re: I’m leaving China
#198The issues the author has about line cutting and openly gawking seemed kinda interesting. In my view line cutting happens because people have this view that their time is more valuable than anyone else's, and so they don't see it as breaking any 'rules' as such. And this isn't unique to China, you can see this in a lot of poorer south/south-east Asian countries. Kinda why driving is also a nightmare in these countrie…
I grew up in China. Line cutting has always been annoying, even infuriating, for me. The last few times I visited back, I noticed the young generations are much better in this aspect. There are rarely any improvements in this regard among my generation and older ones. So I guess we have to wait for nature taking its time. Gawking is common in places that are not culturally diverse. I drove to many small towns in Midw…
Thank you for the data point! I spent 5 years in Chengdu, China and (full comment elsewhere in the thread) found it fairly easy to crystallize a line out of chaos. The only explanation I can think of is that many people feel similarly to you!
Fairness may be instinctual: https://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2010/07/is...
Re: I’m leaving China
#199Earlier quoted context omitted.
There are also a lot of news reports in China about the opposite happening. Where groups of people will get together to save someone. There was even one incident where a group of people lifted a car up to save the girl that was run over. Or how a taxi driver jumps into a manhole to save a girl who fell in. Or how a group of delivery guys caught a child that was hanging on a several story perch. However, those news re…
> All we see are the bad things. Actually, all we see are the things we see. No one has a terribly precise way of knowing what the real world distribution of good and bad behavior are, yet there is no shortage of people who believe very strongly that they do. It's one of those quirks of the human mind, but it can be overcome with effort.
Hans Rosling says we are instinctually inclined to watch for danger (aka bad news) than for safety. Ha. Makes me ask when was the last time someone pointed out a safe thing. "Watch out, that pizza in the fridge is still good."
Edit: Source for Hans Rosling: the book "Factfulness" (highly recommended—it is really a meta-discussion of how do you talk about good news with people)
Re: I’m leaving China
#200Earlier quoted context omitted.
I give him credit for even trying China. China is the opposite of libertarianism both culturally and politically. Even without the party, personal liberty and worth doesn't factor in much in China or anywhere where Confucianism took root. It's always in relations to others that you derive your worth. That aspect of my heritage has always sit poorly with me (then again I was raised in the US). I'm not saying one way i…
I would agree that China is probably the opposite of libertarian politically. Culturally, I would find it hard to agree. Most people don’t give a crap about others (in a liberating and selfish manner) unless it concerns them directly.