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I’m leaving China

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Re: I’m leaving China

#161

Post by tptacek »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #111
sumedh wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A kid chasing a ball out into a crowded street is more likely to survive in China Han the USA. That sounds nice but the fact is more people per 100,000 are killed in China than the US.

Yes, there aren’t many kids chasing balls in the states anymore.

This is pretty silly. Illinois drivers ed makes a point of teaching about the "ball bounces into the street, dumb kid is sure to abruptly follow" scenario, and both of my kids ran into exactly that scenario as I taught them to drive on the streets around our house. Kids chase balls into the streets all the time.

I'm curious about how you might have ever planned to back this weird argument up with evidence. Is there some secret repository of kids-playing-with-balls evidence that you were waiting to bust out? Or were you just going to try to first-principles it?

Re: I’m leaving China

#162

Post by kafkaesque »

99_00 wrote: post #83
lewis500 wrote: post #49

Regarding the line-cutting/cheating he talks about. I like to distinguish between "culture" and something vaguer, which is what type of equilibrium someone is trapped in. I started to think this way when I lived in Argentina. Argentina is very corrupt, but just across the river is Uruguay...the least corrupt country in Latin America by some metrics. Argentines and Uruguayos are culturally quite similar (the relations…

You should look into Richmond BC or Vancouver Canada. Lots of Chinese and lots of corruption associated with Chinese population, especially tax evasion, money laundering, immigration fraud, illegal business. The only line cutting however is when the fire department is giving away free road salt or there is a sale at the Coach outlet store.

Not just in BC. There are quite a few Chinese and Taiwanese who are also corrupt in Los Angeles and its suburbs (the San Gabriel Valley).

This is not to say there aren't thousands and possibly millions of Chinese people who are good citizens.

But I mention it because OP seems a little too confident in his belief, when there are are pretty massive examples of the contrary.

Re: I’m leaving China

#163

Post by seanmcdirmid »

tptacek wrote: post #161
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, there aren’t many kids chasing balls in the states anymore.

This is pretty silly. Illinois drivers ed makes a point of teaching about the "ball bounces into the street, dumb kid is sure to abruptly follow" scenario, and both of my kids ran into exactly that scenario as I taught them to drive on the streets around our house. Kids chase balls into the streets all the time. I'm curious about how you might have ever planned to back this weird argument up with evidence. Is there s…

I’ve seen a lot of weird stuff on the road in China, very close to the proverbial kid chasing a ball into the street (though it might be some farmer chasing a goat, pig, or chicken). Anecdotally, I’ve never seen something similar happen in the states.

It just doesn’t happen in the USA, people aren’t prepared for it, which is well enough since the fatality rate is still low. It will happen in China if you spend a few week there.

Re: I’m leaving China

#164

Post by seanmcdirmid »

lhl wrote: post #143
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, there aren’t many kids chasing balls in the states anymore.

How droll, but of course a completely meaningless/content free comment. A more useful one: it's very easy to get traffic accident and fatality rates statistics. [1] China has about 2X per-capita road fatalities, and almost 10X per-vehicle fatalities as the US. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-r...

Again, a lot of weird stuff happens on the road in China that doesn’t happen in the states. Everyone is on high alert when on the road (pedestrian and drivers) because they have to be.

Someone doing X being more likely to survive in China than the USA doesn’t mean the USA will have a higher fatality rate (since people just don’t do X there).

Re: I’m leaving China

#165

Post by KozmoNau7 »

kenjackson wrote: post #33

I never thought quite as broadly as the author, but what he says is consistent with one thing I observed -- driving and pedestrian behavior. In China drivers and pedestrians are both better and worse than those in the US. I found drivers and pedestrians both to be much more aware and had more agency about what they needed to to be safe. Whereas in the US we assume a lot more that the rules of the road are going to be…

I experienced a similar disparity when I visited India. From a western perspective, it was very chaotic, with no obvious rules and no real consistent system.

Everything just sort of flowed around everything else, there was a cacophony of honking and shouting and cars/bikes just wedging in themselves where they wanted to go.

As someone from northern Europe, all of this just didn't make sense to me.

Yet somehow, I did not witness a single crash during the week I was there, not even a minor love tap.

Of course this is completely anecdotal, and I know India has a very high road fatality rate. But there is some reason to the chaos. When the infrastructure is lacking, people are surprisingly good at adapting and making things work on the fly.

Personally, I prefer the rules and predictability of western traffic, but it does tend to break down and confuse people when someone starts blatantly disregarding the rules. Indian/Chinese traffic is more adaptable, in a way.

Re: I’m leaving China

#166

Post by KozmoNau7 »

cmplxconjugate wrote: post #50

As a speaker of mandarin (Chinese wife) and having lived in China for a year, I really resonate with this. One thing I try to explain to friends is the observation (and generalisation) of the tier of social behaviour. In short, if the person is a stranger you are total apathetic to them. If they are an acquaintance or friend you treat them kindly at face value. If they are family... you treat them with a disturbing b…

>"if the person is a stranger you are total apathetic to them."

This in particular is so foreign to me, that it's actually hard to wrap my head around.

Re: I’m leaving China

#167

Post by argonaut »

abhgh wrote: post #158
jwilbs wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find this comment odd. I spent many years in Oakland and saw plenty of Indians (a quick google search shows Oakland is 17% Asian). Not to mention there are at least three Indian restaurants within two blocks of 12th street/Oakland City Center BART.

I am not sure why you find this odd. This could be locality specific - I didn't tell you where exactly my walk was. Nor did I imply if I walked the same distance anywhere in Oakland - anywhere in all 78 sq mi in it - I would invite the same reactions. In fact I do believe its locality specific, because in my other visits, which were to some of the theatres, the Oracle arena etc, I did see Indians. Also, not that it m…

I also found your anecdote odd, as a lifelong resident of the Bay Area. People everywhere in Oakland will have generally seen and interacted with many South(east) Asians before, (and without a doubt Asians in general, and also without a doubt near BART stations and along major roads). I also specifically say South(east) Asians because at least visually many people do not distinguish between them.

Re: I’m leaving China

#168

Post by Canada »

throwb187 wrote: post #153
msie wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet there is outrage in Chinese social media when that happens. So "not all Chinese"?

There are also a lot of news reports in China about the opposite happening. Where groups of people will get together to save someone. There was even one incident where a group of people lifted a car up to save the girl that was run over. Or how a taxi driver jumps into a manhole to save a girl who fell in. Or how a group of delivery guys caught a child that was hanging on a several story perch. However, those news re…

As witness to an accident in China I've seen how reluctant people are to help the injured. I've heard there can be liability for anyone who gets involved and that there's many scams, which could explain why people behave as they do.

The default behavior in China seems to be "ignore and keep moving" while everywhere else usually at least one person will help immediately. I couldn't believe that so many people could look at someone so obviously in distress, bleeding on the street, and none willing to even call for help.

Re: I’m leaving China

#169

Post by KozmoNau7 »

basica wrote: post #118
peterwwillis wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In France, if you want a waiter, you call them over. When they have time, they'll get to you. They leave you alone because most French people don't want to be bothered a lot while they're talking and eating, or reading the paper (a sentiment I can get down with). If something is screwed up with the food, they would first probably wonder why this American tourist thinks that the French chef screwed up the dish that th…

I'm not an American, but I am used to being able to modify an order. I don't think of this as being entitled as I am after all paying for the meal and depending on the restaurant it's not exactly a cheap meal. That being the case I don't see any reason for negotiation if I'm not happy with the meal. The only thing I'd agree with is that it'd be absurd to request another meal for free simply because the one you chose…

From my European perspective, US customer service is simply too much. Hovering over you, with that unnerving fake-feeling politeness. It makes me feel sort of like an errant child that needs help finding his mommy.

I don't need to be coddled, it's actually rather condescending.

I much prefer the European way of letting you look for yourself and then asking simply "can I help you?", if you look like you don't quite know what you're looking for. And if you tell them "I'm just browsing", they'll leave you alone, to browse in peace. Much less stressful.

Re: I’m leaving China

#170

Post by KozmoNau7 »

ljw1001 wrote: post #106
pascalxus wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Go to france and try going to a restaurant. You'll see what i mean, right away. It's a world of a difference.

Yup. No horror quite so horrid as dining in French restaurants.

Not sure if you're being sarcastic. The very best and most pleasant restaurants I've ever been to are French. Alsace, to be precise. Wonderful people, absolutely amazing food.
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