GitHub and Open-Source Is a Boon for the Underprivileged • Hacker News Board

Re: GitHub and Open-Source Is a Boon for the Underprivileged

#121

Post by gmjosack » Sun, Jun 10, 2018, 4:25 PM UTC

TAForObvReasons wrote: post #118

gmjosack wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And there are also many of us put in situations of reviewing resumes and interviewing that don't have college experience who don't care what school you went to, or if you even did. Going to college definitely makes things easier, and I don't advise people to take the path I did but there are paths other than college that still work well for this industry.

You're talking past the point. The original comment was: > I've never been asked about any education in developer interviews, only experience. > ... employers simply stop caring about education level. The reason he was not asked about education is not necessarily because 'employers by and large don't care', but rather that 'employers that do care about education would've already filtered him out after seeing the resu…

Thanks for clarifying your point, I think that makes a lot of sense.

Thankfully for me I consider it a positive selection bias as I wouldn't want to work for a company/manager with such insular hiring criteria. Unfortunately it does make it harder for people just getting started in their career.

Re: GitHub and Open-Source Is a Boon for the Underprivileged

#122

Post by nitely » Sun, Jun 10, 2018, 4:30 PM UTC

sidlls wrote: post #108

cup-of-tea wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who is signing away code they write in their own time? If you do that then that's your fault. It's not normal at all.

It's very common for employment contracts to include that. Some states disallow such clauses but not all.

I think parent means that even if you "sign a contract assigning all IP to their employer", you can still write OSS code in your free time, since there is no way your employer will find out, and even if they do, they've no way to prove you wrote it, except if you "sign it", which no one does.

Re: GitHub and Open-Source Is a Boon for the Underprivileged

#123

Post by ahartmetz » Sun, Jun 10, 2018, 4:51 PM UTC

KirinDave wrote: post #105

> Because open-source is good at cutting through the bullshit, it also makes it an equalizer. That's one heck of a premise.

You mean open source doesn't cut through the bullshit? It totally does. People can put anything on their resume and sometimes bullshit their way through questions trying to figure out whether they've actually done these things. If all else fails, they can claim trade secrets.

Open source contributions can't be faked (except by real name collision), and in any case, there is much more detail available than a few lines or bullet points in a resume.

Re: GitHub and Open-Source Is a Boon for the Underprivileged

#124

Post by JanisL » Sun, Jun 10, 2018, 4:52 PM UTC

koboll wrote: post #106

user5994461 wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>> I have been working productively as a systems software developer for 32 years. I do not have a degree; I'm a high-school dropout. It's easy to say coming from a generation where higher education was not the norm. A 20 year old saying he dropped out of high school will not be received well in any job interview. 98% of the population can do better than that.

I've never been asked about any education in developer interviews, only experience. Obviously YMMV, but after a couple years of experience, employers simply stop caring about education level.

Anecdotally the most dysfunctional place I've worked at was the most obsessed about educational credentials. I had highly relevant experience (including some that was open sourced on GitHub) and a degree in a related field but it wasn't the exact degree they were looking for. This struck me as really strange at the time, I found out later that the managing director was pressuring the people doing to hiring to only take people that were eligible for some particular government funding that had rather narrow conditions about credentials. The only reason I got hired was because the position had been open for a long time and they were starting to get a bit desperate. I shudder to think how many other skilled applicants didn't get that job in the months before I did.

Re: GitHub and Open-Source Is a Boon for the Underprivileged

#125

Post by onion2k » Sun, Jun 10, 2018, 4:54 PM UTC

jakobegger wrote: post #101

onion2k wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

when you're young you frankly don't need a whole lot of sleep You do if you have health issues, or mental health issues, or kids (some young people have them), or a long commute, or a second job, or if you're not young ... It's hard to recognize privilege when you have it.

Maybe we should stop complaining about privilege and call it opportunity? If you happen to have rich parents who pay for the best college, that's an awesome opportunity. Nobody should have to feel bad about taking it! If you are poor, but happen to have a lot of spare time, that's also an opportunity. Complaining about privilege is not actionable. Focussing on opportunities is a lot more constructive: We can look for…

Complaining about privilege is not actionable.

It is actionable though. People can make hiring decisions on a candidates work rather than what they do in the spare time, just as they do in every other industry besides tech.

Re: GitHub and Open-Source Is a Boon for the Underprivileged

#126

Post by realSlavojTrump » Sun, Jun 10, 2018, 4:57 PM UTC

tziki wrote: post #68

detaro wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, and the one of women drops below the one of men, and that's clearly what the initial reference to the paper was talking about.

But only in the case of 'outsiders'. In the case of 'insiders' the acceptance rate of men drops more than that of women when their gender is known (no p-value provided so hard to tell if statistically significant).

A person trying to use github as a hiring signal is going to be an outsider at some point.

Re: GitHub and Open-Source Is a Boon for the Underprivileged

#127

Post by teddyh » Sun, Jun 10, 2018, 4:57 PM UTC

Is this maybe a hint of the lock-in which GitHub will pursue in the future? Like Facebook, you might prefer to avoid having an account, but due to other people using the platform as a signal, you feel that you can’t avoid signing up for GitHub (and accepting whatever terms Microsoft will set on this).

It is also a bit like the problem of academic publishing; you might prefer to publish in an Open Access journal and on ArXiv, but feel that you have no choice for your academic career other than to pay dearly for publishing in a “influential”/“reputable” journal owned by Elsevier, giving up all rights to publish elsewhere (and whatever other rights they feel they can push).

Re: GitHub and Open-Source Is a Boon for the Underprivileged

#128

Post by 52-6F-62 » Sun, Jun 10, 2018, 5:01 PM UTC

duckduckno wrote: post #115

mmjaa wrote: post #72

I have been working productively as a systems software developer for 32 years. I do not have a degree; I'm a high-school dropout. I've built systems you've probably used, and/or may still be using. The #1 technical lever I have found worth exploiting, worth far more than anything a university can provide, is the willingness to get the job done. It hasn't mattered if I wrote CP/M code ISR's, PROGRESS 4GL modules, Unix…

I've recently dropped out of highschool and I've been considering two options: promptly returning to school and finishing my degree or dedicating time to self-educate via the internet. Which pathway would you suggest? I have always felt conflicted about our current education system because it undervalues creativity and disingenuously puts forth the notion that school is for learning when clearly it is not. Teachers c…

You're already a competent communicator. That's unfortunately a skill lost for a lot of people with "good jobs".

I recommend at least finishing high school, but it's not absolutely crucial. It will help just all the more with landing a job for someone else—

Your question and situation is a tough one. If you're young and I knew you I would rail against you:

"GO

BACK

TO

SCHOOL".

--

But!

The world is large. You need to find your own way through it.

Continue to look for advice from accomplished people and ignore advice from people who are seeking to validate their own ego. It can be tough to decode that in real time and real life, but from the sounds of it you'll be fine.

--

Separate from my sloppy attempts and encouragement— you should never stop learning whatever you can that might help the direction you decide to move in. By that I mean, even if you had a high-level degree in any field you can't stop there.

That is the road less travelled you're going down presently, though. If you want to talk some more (from someone with similar—but not the same—experience), check my profile for a link to my contact.

I'd be happy to talk it out.

Re: GitHub and Open-Source Is a Boon for the Underprivileged

#129

Post by JanisL » Sun, Jun 10, 2018, 5:01 PM UTC

malvosenior wrote: post #99

annabellish wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you might be confusing "wanting it bad enough" with "going to a sufficiently well-funded school" to a point there. Some schools had that kind of equipment available for the students to use, but it certainly wasn't universal. I imagine it's a lot closer now, but poor schools are still underfunded to the point of teachers having to buy pen and paper from their own money, so it's possible that that still may not…

My school was extremely poor and underfunded. I was using Apple IIs in the late 90s. If my school had them I’m sure 99% of all schools in the US have at least early 80s computers available. > I think the suggestion that the choice is between "learning to program" or "watching sports" is extremely reductive and not accurate to a lot of people's experiences. I strongly disagree. That’s exactly what other people were do…

Ironically some of those older machines seem like they might have been good to learn to code on. I remember the first code I wrote was on some really old Apple computer with basic (I think it was Chipmunk Basic) and it was really quite straightforward compared with some of the things I deal with now. I don't know how favorably I would have responded to something like C++ or Java some other professional-oriented language that was starting to get popular at the time. Clearly as a professional I wouldn't use that now but having a low barrier to entry at that point in life seemed quite fortunate.

Re: GitHub and Open-Source Is a Boon for the Underprivileged

#130

Post by JanisL » Sun, Jun 10, 2018, 5:04 PM UTC

duckduckno wrote: post #115

mmjaa wrote: post #72

I have been working productively as a systems software developer for 32 years. I do not have a degree; I'm a high-school dropout. I've built systems you've probably used, and/or may still be using. The #1 technical lever I have found worth exploiting, worth far more than anything a university can provide, is the willingness to get the job done. It hasn't mattered if I wrote CP/M code ISR's, PROGRESS 4GL modules, Unix…

I've recently dropped out of highschool and I've been considering two options: promptly returning to school and finishing my degree or dedicating time to self-educate via the internet. Which pathway would you suggest? I have always felt conflicted about our current education system because it undervalues creativity and disingenuously puts forth the notion that school is for learning when clearly it is not. Teachers c…

I think the biggest thing is just to keep that hunger for learning going strong, that will serve you well regardless of the direction you decide to go in. I think knowing what year you dropped out at matters for giving advice here.