Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

GitHub and Open-Source Is a Boon for the Underprivileged

amasad.me

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

91–100 of 183 posts

Re: GitHub and Open-Source Is a Boon for the Underprivileged

#91

Post by spamizbad »

watwut wrote: post #23

Imo, OSS advocates really really want open source contributions to be used as hiring signal, because that would mean more open source developers. That is what this all is about, primary. Wish to come back to "open source developers are superior, because reasons" ideology that was pushed for during open/close source wars. And close source developers take issue with it not just because of privilege, but also because yo…

> Imo, OSS advocates really really want open source contributions to be used as hiring signal, because that would mean more open source developers. That is what this all is about, primary. Wish to come back to "open source developers are superior, because reasons" ideology that was pushed for during open/close source wars.

That's a new take. As someone who lived through that "war" in the 90s, the typical refrain from the "closed source" crowd was that open source developers were merely hobbyists, whereas closed source was built 100% by professional software developers.

Re: GitHub and Open-Source Is a Boon for the Underprivileged

#92

Post by njoro »

mmjaa wrote: post #72

I have been working productively as a systems software developer for 32 years. I do not have a degree; I'm a high-school dropout. I've built systems you've probably used, and/or may still be using. The #1 technical lever I have found worth exploiting, worth far more than anything a university can provide, is the willingness to get the job done. It hasn't mattered if I wrote CP/M code ISR's, PROGRESS 4GL modules, Unix…

Your conclusion doesn't make sense to me. Success is a matter of probability. Someone with a recognizable degree has a higher probability of capturing more of their earning potential. Someone who doesn't have one is more likely to lose potential money to contracting companies and landlords. Spend more time working lower paying jobs and navigating the job or housing market. And to not participate in the upside of company profits, shares, housing and investments.

That you can succeed even as a high-school dropout by being in the right places at the right time or spending effort on the right things isn't a good argument against degrees. Because a degree increases your likelihood of doing those things.

There are certainly downsides to recognizable degrees, but I don't think ones chances of success in the tech industry is one of them.

Re: GitHub and Open-Source Is a Boon for the Underprivileged

#93

Post by malvosenior »

annabellish wrote: post #78
mmjaa wrote: post #72

I have been working productively as a systems software developer for 32 years. I do not have a degree; I'm a high-school dropout. I've built systems you've probably used, and/or may still be using. The #1 technical lever I have found worth exploiting, worth far more than anything a university can provide, is the willingness to get the job done. It hasn't mattered if I wrote CP/M code ISR's, PROGRESS 4GL modules, Unix…

> Computers, being machines of will, equalise us all that way. It's _complicated_. I mean, almost everything in society is complicated: it's like sphagetti code written by millions of people with no single coherent goal. There's a degree to which what you say is true, and a degree to which it is false. The most obvious way in which it is false is that learning how to use a computer well requires a) access to a comput…

Tech is more of a meritocracy than any other field. If you are a good developer, you will succeed.

You are correct that access to technology and learning resources has greatly increased. People who wanted it bad enough could make it work though. I couldn’t afford a computer growing up so I would find ways to access the crappy Apple IIes my school had just to get some programming time. The library had books on Basic and magazines (which I would read for free in the grocery) used to have code in them.

I don’t buy the lack of time argument though. Life is about prioritizing. Millions of poor people have substantial time to invest in football, basketball, TV, video games.. Learning to program just takes putting it above those less productive activities. The real issue (imho) is that very few people are cut out to be developers. This push to turn everyone into an engineer makes about as much sense to me as encouraging everyone to be a pro-basketball player. It’s great money, everyone should do it!

Re: GitHub and Open-Source Is a Boon for the Underprivileged

#94

Post by watwut »

spamizbad wrote: post #91
watwut wrote: post #23

Imo, OSS advocates really really want open source contributions to be used as hiring signal, because that would mean more open source developers. That is what this all is about, primary. Wish to come back to "open source developers are superior, because reasons" ideology that was pushed for during open/close source wars. And close source developers take issue with it not just because of privilege, but also because yo…

> Imo, OSS advocates really really want open source contributions to be used as hiring signal, because that would mean more open source developers. That is what this all is about, primary. Wish to come back to "open source developers are superior, because reasons" ideology that was pushed for during open/close source wars. That's a new take. As someone who lived through that "war" in the 90s, the typical refrain from…

Maybe it depends on who did you socialized with? Among people I knew it was universally "close source programmers are crap, oss are all geniuses". I also remember reading thinkpieces like that from people like Stallman (I think). A lot of heroization of programmers vs unethical managers too.

I remember the thing you said too, but only in context of "it is obviously stupid" and obvious manipulation from evil Microsoft. I still think that part was true (that it was manipulation from MS who was remarkably unethical in this war).

Re: GitHub and Open-Source Is a Boon for the Underprivileged

#95

Post by cimmanom »

tom_ wrote: post #89
cup-of-tea wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who is signing away code they write in their own time? If you do that then that's your fault. It's not normal at all.

It's been a clause in every employment contract I've been given. I signed the first one, because I wanted the job; the second company folded between my signing and the start date, so it was moot; I didn't sign the third contract at all, but I worked there for 7 years, which apparently is tantamount to acceptance :( Some companies have put this clause in contracts for shorter-term project-based contract work, but I've…

I've been able to negotiate a rephrasing of this in every contract I've been presented with that contains it.

What you're willing to give the company is probably the same as what's really important to them: rights to IP you create in the course of your work for the company or during work hours or using company resources.

There are ways to phrase this such that - if you're a reasonably desirable hire - the vast majority of HR departments will be willing to substitute for the blanket terms.

If you're not sure how to negotiate this, explain that as an example you want to be able to continue to manage the website for your rotary club / kids scout program / whatever; and that the current phrasing would give the company the rights to that website, which there's no reason they'd want, and prevent you from giving back to your community.

Re: GitHub and Open-Source Is a Boon for the Underprivileged

#96

Post by xstartup »

It's very true.

Many developers in the west having higher disposable income than their not so lucky counterparts who might be able to rival them in absolute skill.

But those developers want to spend more time with the family.

Remote work has not taken off even if we assume it's more profitable for a company to hire cheaper staff in low COL. This might mean that lots of the things in a startup has to do with maintaining a perception of smart geeks are working on a difficult global problem.

There is an arbitrage opportunity here by hiring ghost developers from low COL locations (similar to ghost writers). Why not support developers from low COL? That's what creates global economic equality right which egalitarian society always strives for.

So, if anyone comes to your office you'll have people looking seriously absorbed by the difficult problem but the real work will be done elsewhere, in return, you get peace of mind and more time with your family. Instagram pages and blogs will be lush with happy tech employee faces and "long stories of slaying tech demons".

Is this happening?

Re: GitHub and Open-Source Is a Boon for the Underprivileged

#97

Post by rhencke »

cup-of-tea wrote: post #82
mmjaa wrote: post #72

I have been working productively as a systems software developer for 32 years. I do not have a degree; I'm a high-school dropout. I've built systems you've probably used, and/or may still be using. The #1 technical lever I have found worth exploiting, worth far more than anything a university can provide, is the willingness to get the job done. It hasn't mattered if I wrote CP/M code ISR's, PROGRESS 4GL modules, Unix…

> I was willing to get the job done, no matter what, is what made the difference. Even if it means building something unmaintainable and generally against your principles of good engineering? Many people will do that, but I hope there are some out there who would value a reluctance to work like that.

I don't see anything in the parent post that alluded to building things that were unmaintainable and against principles of good engineering.

Given the rest of the tone of the parent post, I believe this sentence was more intended to emphasize that they did not make excuses for themselves - for example, that they did not know language X, or technology Y. Instead, they rolled up their sleeves and dug in, and figured it out, and got it done.

Re: GitHub and Open-Source Is a Boon for the Underprivileged

#98

Post by annabellish »

malvosenior wrote: post #93
annabellish wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Computers, being machines of will, equalise us all that way. It's _complicated_. I mean, almost everything in society is complicated: it's like sphagetti code written by millions of people with no single coherent goal. There's a degree to which what you say is true, and a degree to which it is false. The most obvious way in which it is false is that learning how to use a computer well requires a) access to a comput…

Tech is more of a meritocracy than any other field. If you are a good developer, you will succeed. You are correct that access to technology and learning resources has greatly increased. People who wanted it bad enough could make it work though. I couldn’t afford a computer growing up so I would find ways to access the crappy Apple IIes my school had just to get some programming time. The library had books on Basic a…

I think you might be confusing "wanting it bad enough" with "going to a sufficiently well-funded school" to a point there. Some schools had that kind of equipment available for the students to use, but it certainly wasn't universal. I imagine it's a lot closer now, but poor schools are still underfunded to the point of teachers having to buy pen and paper from their own money, so it's possible that that still may not be available.

As for time, I think the suggestion that the choice is between "learning to program" or "watching sports" is extremely reductive and not accurate to a lot of people's experiences.

Re: GitHub and Open-Source Is a Boon for the Underprivileged

#99

Post by malvosenior »

annabellish wrote: post #98
malvosenior wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tech is more of a meritocracy than any other field. If you are a good developer, you will succeed. You are correct that access to technology and learning resources has greatly increased. People who wanted it bad enough could make it work though. I couldn’t afford a computer growing up so I would find ways to access the crappy Apple IIes my school had just to get some programming time. The library had books on Basic a…

I think you might be confusing "wanting it bad enough" with "going to a sufficiently well-funded school" to a point there. Some schools had that kind of equipment available for the students to use, but it certainly wasn't universal. I imagine it's a lot closer now, but poor schools are still underfunded to the point of teachers having to buy pen and paper from their own money, so it's possible that that still may not…

My school was extremely poor and underfunded. I was using Apple IIs in the late 90s. If my school had them I’m sure 99% of all schools in the US have at least early 80s computers available.

> I think the suggestion that the choice is between "learning to program" or "watching sports" is extremely reductive and not accurate to a lot of people's experiences.

I strongly disagree. That’s exactly what other people were doing while I was learning to master technology. We were all very poor. I’m not anymore, the vast majority of people I knew who didn’t use their time wisely still are.

Re: GitHub and Open-Source Is a Boon for the Underprivileged

#100

Post by chiefalchemist »

njoro wrote: post #92
mmjaa wrote: post #72

I have been working productively as a systems software developer for 32 years. I do not have a degree; I'm a high-school dropout. I've built systems you've probably used, and/or may still be using. The #1 technical lever I have found worth exploiting, worth far more than anything a university can provide, is the willingness to get the job done. It hasn't mattered if I wrote CP/M code ISR's, PROGRESS 4GL modules, Unix…

Your conclusion doesn't make sense to me. Success is a matter of probability. Someone with a recognizable degree has a higher probability of capturing more of their earning potential. Someone who doesn't have one is more likely to lose potential money to contracting companies and landlords. Spend more time working lower paying jobs and navigating the job or housing market. And to not participate in the upside of comp…

> "Your conclusion doesn't make sense to me. Success is a matter of probability. Someone with a recognizable degree has a higher probability of capturing more of their earning potential."

Yes and no. Perhaps the degree is simply correlation? That is, to get a degree you need at least a certain amount of focus, ambition, the ability to start / finish something, etc.

The point is, using the degree here is a false flag. And it can be, as the OP notes, deceptive. Just because so many fall for it doesn't mean it's right.

Just the same, success is possible without a degree. How? All / most of the positive traits listed above.

Post reply on HN