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Google Won't Renew Contract for Project Maven, Pentagon Drone AI Imaging Program

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Re: Google Won't Renew Contract for Project Maven, Pentagon Drone AI Imaging Program

#141

Post by ocdtrekkie »

tomohawk wrote: post #81
ocdtrekkie wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's very likely if there were a legitimate threat or need for the technology, employee opinion on helping the military would likely change. China and Russia are regularly highlighted as the bogeymen in these scenarios, but how many people realistically would suggest either is likely to say... invade or fire on the United States?

So, unless the US is faced with imminent invasion, they should stick their heads in the sand? China is in the process of forcibly taking over an enormous chunk of geography in the south china sea. They have fired on and intimidated their neighbors such as Vietnam and Philippines in connection with this. They continue to undermine and isolate Taiwan. They are a big part of why N Korea has nuclear weapons and ICBMs. Ru…

My personal view is that neither China's interest in the South China Sea nor Russia's interest in the Ukraine constitute an interest in attacking the United States. Both represent territory close to them and far from us.

Re: Google Won't Renew Contract for Project Maven, Pentagon Drone AI Imaging Program

#142

Post by dang »

jacksmith21006 wrote: post #125
ocdtrekkie wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Corporations have no ethics or morals, though. Google has no conscience of it's own. Employees can perhaps keep it in check, for a while. But the notion that people have held that Google is good for society is a myth, and people are increasingly realizing it. Sure, employees may continue to protest actions like this in the future... if they find out about them. Bear in mind, a significant component of this incident i…

Of course companies have ethics and morals. Companies are run by people. Google more than most if we look at actions. The biggest was leaving China over principle and losing out on a ton of money versus Apple handing over their user data. But there are so many more with Google. So many crazy ones. Look at smartphones and Google continuing to give away Android for free. Even in China where there is not Google services…

You've gotten involved in way too many flamewars about Google and your comments are lowering the quality of this site. That's a moderation issue. Here you crossed into outright personal attack. We ban users that do that, so please don't do it again, and would you please stop commenting so much, and so exclusively, about Google? This sort of agenda is boring, and not what HN is for.

Please see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17216633 also.

Re: Google Won't Renew Contract for Project Maven, Pentagon Drone AI Imaging Program

#143

Post by dang »

ocdtrekkie wrote: post #56
cromwellian wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That may be a component, but IMHO, pronouncements and explanations haven't diminished employee objections to say the least.

Corporations have no ethics or morals, though. Google has no conscience of it's own. Employees can perhaps keep it in check, for a while. But the notion that people have held that Google is good for society is a myth, and people are increasingly realizing it. Sure, employees may continue to protest actions like this in the future... if they find out about them. Bear in mind, a significant component of this incident i…

Can you please roll back the Google agenda in your comments? We've had this discussion before. At a certain point it starts to affect the quality of this site by making things more predictable and flamewar-prone, triggering accusations of astroturf, and all the rest of internet disease. You appear to have passed that point again recently, as more than one moderator has noticed. It's not what HN is for, and it's tedious, so please don't.

(It doesn't matter that it's about Google—the same is true for any X. X just happens to be Google in this case, as it is with https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17214242. And when two of these get going on each other...hoo boy.)

Re: Google Won't Renew Contract for Project Maven, Pentagon Drone AI Imaging Program

#144

Post by kinsomo »

empath75 wrote: post #93
kinsomo wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No, the primary difference is that we deploy drones in areas we are not engaged in warfare, and to assassinate various individuals in foreign countries where we are not at war. The US hasn't been officialy "at war" in a long time. I think the last one was World War II. > We do not deploy F-35s to assassinate people in Pakistan. Of course not: F-35s are more expensive to operate and I'm not sure they've even attaine…

So you’re not really arguing the point at all. The drone program is an assassination program which is fundamentally different than somemething like the f-35.

> The drone program is an assassination program which is fundamentally different than somemething like the f-35.

My point is there's no meaningful difference between dropping a JDAM on a particular target with an F-35 or dropping a JDAM on the same target with a drone.

Either way, you dropped a JDAM on a target. Doing it with a drone doesn't magically make the result worse or different somehow.

Re: Google Won't Renew Contract for Project Maven, Pentagon Drone AI Imaging Program

#145

Post by jacksmith21006 »

dang wrote: post #142
jacksmith21006 wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course companies have ethics and morals. Companies are run by people. Google more than most if we look at actions. The biggest was leaving China over principle and losing out on a ton of money versus Apple handing over their user data. But there are so many more with Google. So many crazy ones. Look at smartphones and Google continuing to give away Android for free. Even in China where there is not Google services…

You've gotten involved in way too many flamewars about Google and your comments are lowering the quality of this site. That's a moderation issue. Here you crossed into outright personal attack. We ban users that do that, so please don't do it again, and would you please stop commenting so much, and so exclusively, about Google? This sort of agenda is boring, and not what HN is for. Please see https://news.ycombinator…

The issue is there is a poster that goes by "ocdtrekkie" for some reason has post a number of times things that are not true and pretty much only posts things that are not true around Google in a negative light. Not sure what drives it but it is not based on facts.

Am I allowed to refute when things said are not true? I will post with facts to support?

Perfect example is him posting all over that Google removed "do not be evil" from employee code of conduct.

Here is a link to the actual agreement. Please read the last line and what employees are left with.

https://abc.xyz/investor/other/google-code-of-conduct.html

"And remember… don’t be evil, and if you see something that you think isn’t right – speak up!"

Now this is a factual matter. Not an opinion. So him posting something that is blatantly untrue I am not allowed to refute with facts?

He does this same thing constantly.

Just looking for help how to handle someone that does this over and over again.

Thanks in advance!

Re: Google Won't Renew Contract for Project Maven, Pentagon Drone AI Imaging Program

#146

Post by dang »

jacksmith21006 wrote: post #145
dang wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've gotten involved in way too many flamewars about Google and your comments are lowering the quality of this site. That's a moderation issue. Here you crossed into outright personal attack. We ban users that do that, so please don't do it again, and would you please stop commenting so much, and so exclusively, about Google? This sort of agenda is boring, and not what HN is for. Please see https://news.ycombinator…

The issue is there is a poster that goes by "ocdtrekkie" for some reason has post a number of times things that are not true and pretty much only posts things that are not true around Google in a negative light. Not sure what drives it but it is not based on facts. Am I allowed to refute when things said are not true? I will post with facts to support? Perfect example is him posting all over that Google removed "do n…

Arguments like this are not as 'factual' as they feel to the people arguing, but are driven by conflicting preferences and emotions. If I like X strongly enough and you despise X strongly enough, then every time we meet we're going to tangle about X. Such arguments are repetitive, tedious to everyone else, and devolve into incivility. The impulse to do this needs to be resisted. So the answer to your question "how to handle someone that does this" is that you don't have to "handle" them, and we need you to let it go because your attempts to "handle" them are damaging the site.

Occasionally it happens that a user fees so strongly about a company that they have to comment about it every which way. For or against, this is a problem: it's repetitive and provokes worse. As I've tried to explain to you elsewhere, you've crossed the line with this Google stuff where you're not having a curiosity-driven conversation, but rather prosecuting an agenda and inundating the threads. Other users have been complaining about your comments for some time now. Lest you think we're favoring one side, I've said similar things to ocdtrekkie.

In the past, we've had to ban people who couldn't or wouldn't stop doing this. If you want to participate on HN, please remember the site's purpose: the gratification of intellectual curiosity. That's not an emotion that gets fixed on any single thing, and it flourishes with variety, not repetition.

Re: Google Won't Renew Contract for Project Maven, Pentagon Drone AI Imaging Program

#147

Post by sitkack »

ajross wrote: post #132
sitkack wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if you are a random person anywhere in the world, you are vastly less likely to be killed by someone's bullet than you were pre-WW2. You are spouting unsubstantiated nonsense.

Just google it. This isn't even a controversial position, LOTS of folks in academic history love to point this out. Here's a quick slide show about exactly this effect: https://ourworldindata.org/slides/war-and-violence/#/title-s... See page 6 for a charge that shows exactly the fact I was citing, though the data as a whole is much broader and worth reading. So now I'm "substantiated", I guess. You have numbers showi…

Interesting.

I over reacted in the way I perceived how your statement was framed.

Re: Google Won't Renew Contract for Project Maven, Pentagon Drone AI Imaging Program

#148

Post by cryptoz »

AndrewKemendo wrote: post #137
cryptoz wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US military of the 1990s was a very different organization than it is today. Pretending we have the same solid military leadership right now as we did then is dangerous.

James Mattis, the current Secretary of Defense, was an Military assistant to the Deputy Secretary of Defense during Kosovo. So literally the same person from the 90s is in a key leadership position now in the Military.

So we're just pretending that Trump doesn't exist? There's a big difference between then and today.

Re: Google Won't Renew Contract for Project Maven, Pentagon Drone AI Imaging Program

#149

Post by AndrewKemendo »

cryptoz wrote: post #148
AndrewKemendo wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

James Mattis, the current Secretary of Defense, was an Military assistant to the Deputy Secretary of Defense during Kosovo. So literally the same person from the 90s is in a key leadership position now in the Military.

So we're just pretending that Trump doesn't exist? There's a big difference between then and today.

Yea basically.

Obviously the President is the final authority of the DoD, and the Chain of Command will obey legal orders, but as was made clear with the Transgender conflict between the SECDEF and POTUS it's not as clear cut as the POTUS saying "do as I say" and it just happening.

The Department of Defense isn't an overtly political organization and has a deep philosophy of operating largely the same irrespective of who the CINC is.

[1] https://www.military.com/daily-news/2018/02/22/mattis-recomm...

Re: Google Won't Renew Contract for Project Maven, Pentagon Drone AI Imaging Program

#150

Post by smsm42 »

jacksmith21006 wrote: post #123
smsm42 wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They don't have it anymore. Now it's "do the right thing". What is "the right thing" of course is up to the management to decide.

Not true. Here is the agreement which was updated in April 2018. https://abc.xyz/investor/other/google-code-of-conduct.html Google wanted to emphasize so they put it on the last line that you read with the document. The alt right was who made up the story that Google removed it and then picked up by conservative media and then all media was misreporting it. Typical Google they do not defend themselves and just let it…

> Google wanted to emphasize so they put it on the last line

That's an odd way to emphasize something. I don't remember any time that I wanted to emphasize something so I put it in the last line of the document.

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