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Google Won't Renew Contract for Project Maven, Pentagon Drone AI Imaging Program

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Re: Google Won't Renew Contract for Project Maven, Pentagon Drone AI Imaging Program

#121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this was different then regular military projects because of drones, drones have a terrible reputation.

And it's not just the reputation of drones, it's taking another step towards autonomous killing machines. Robots probably wouldn't be as bad, but the other autonomous killing machines we have are pathogens, and all countries have pretty much decided it's counterproductive to develop pathogens for warfare at this point

My understanding was that pathogens are frowned upon because of their mutability. There is a high risk that you end up killing people you weren't targeting...namely your own citizens after your bioweapon mutates into something you don't possess a cure for.

This is not the same problem posed by AI sorting of imagery (Maven) or armed UAVs in general.

Re: Google Won't Renew Contract for Project Maven, Pentagon Drone AI Imaging Program

#122
post #72

Anyone else have a problem with this? Someone else will be doing this work in place of Google, as it is inevitable that AI and defense will merge. So for those reasons, IMO, it is childish to quit and try to not assert some ethical control over something while you can. Maybe the next co. who fills the contract will be the one where the AI engineers who quit now work? TLDR: Get the program killed, or control it on you…

Is there an ethical approach to making drones better at killing people?

Yes. Precision reduces deaths, overall. Do you know what happens when weapons are NOT precise? The military simply uses more of them, and a BUNCH of human beings end up "collateral damage" in the process. Applying AI to help sort "not a threat" from "threat" should result in the US dropping fewer Hellfires on wedding parties.

Operation Meetinghouse, 1945: ~100,000 killed in 2 days https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Tokyo_(10_March_194...

Operation Rolling Thunder, 1965-68: 30,000-100,000 killed over 3 YEARS https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Rolling_Thunder

The numbers are all over the place for Pakistan drone strikes, but even the high-end estimates are https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drone_strikes_in_Pakistan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualties_from_U.S._... https://theintercept.com/drone-papers/

Re: Google Won't Renew Contract for Project Maven, Pentagon Drone AI Imaging Program

#123
post #90
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I fail to see the problem here. Do you understand why people would want a motto like "Don't be evil"?

They don't have it anymore. Now it's "do the right thing". What is "the right thing" of course is up to the management to decide.

Not true. Here is the agreement which was updated in April 2018.

https://abc.xyz/investor/other/google-code-of-conduct.html

Google wanted to emphasize so they put it on the last line that you read with the document.

The alt right was who made up the story that Google removed it and then picked up by conservative media and then all media was misreporting it.

Typical Google they do not defend themselves and just let it go.

Re: Google Won't Renew Contract for Project Maven, Pentagon Drone AI Imaging Program

#124

The thing I think everyone needs to remember for the future is that Google is only backing off on Maven because of the bad PR. They aren't suddenly growing a conscience, and you can be sure that given the chance to secretly get involved in a horribly unethical program for hundreds of millions of dollars is still definitely an option for them.

Think if we look at actual actions of Google we can see they already had a conscious. I assume what "conscience" was intended?

Perfect example is China. The government was trying to hack in Gmail account and Google decided to leave China even though a ton of money to be made.

Versus Apple handed over all their user data to the government with a complete disregard for privacy to make a buck.

"Campaign targets Apple over privacy betrayal for Chinese iCloud users"

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2018/03/apple-privacy...

But I am not surprised by your post having half truths. I tend to be a super curious person by nature and I see almost every post of yours consistently doing this specifically around Google.

I would love to hear the back story? Why? Do you work for a competitor of Google? Why do you make up stuff around Google and always something negative?

BTW, I have ZERO problem with posts that are truthful on companies. Nothing wrong with that. But in an age of the Internet it is so easy to look up something posted and see that what is posted is not true. I also understand mistakes are made. But basically every post? Now there must be more to it.

Why?

Re: Google Won't Renew Contract for Project Maven, Pentagon Drone AI Imaging Program

#125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That may be a component, but IMHO, pronouncements and explanations haven't diminished employee objections to say the least.

Corporations have no ethics or morals, though. Google has no conscience of it's own. Employees can perhaps keep it in check, for a while. But the notion that people have held that Google is good for society is a myth, and people are increasingly realizing it. Sure, employees may continue to protest actions like this in the future... if they find out about them. Bear in mind, a significant component of this incident i…

Of course companies have ethics and morals. Companies are run by people.

Google more than most if we look at actions. The biggest was leaving China over principle and losing out on a ton of money versus Apple handing over their user data.

But there are so many more with Google. So many crazy ones.

Look at smartphones and Google continuing to give away Android for free. Even in China where there is not Google services and Google even lets Amazon use it for all their hardware.

Google doing this makes phones available to people that would not have the means otherwise. If just Apple they would be stuck.

But a huge one that is close to home is what Google has done for K12 in the US. Our school use to be all Apple but has now replaced the Apple with using Google for pretty much everything.

Our school is relatively wealthy but many are not has blessed as ours and Google offering ChromeOS for free and all the software makes it possible for these kids to have access to computer technology that without Google they would not.

But the big one for us is the analytics. Matching kids up to teachers is so,so,so important and can make a huge difference in a kids life. Previous it had been done by gut. Our school has moved to using the Google ecocystem and our school is a Google K12 showcase school. I forget what they call it. So they are working with our school to use analytics to match kid to teacher.

That just would never have happened or not for a long time without Google.

Also think about the schools that were using Microsoft before replacing with Google. We were lucky we had the money to buy Apple but some were not as lucky and the improvement will be far greater for the schools that were previously using Microsoft. Teachers have limited class time and Windows would cause them to lose a lot more class time dealing with silliness. Or more likely the laptops left in the corner has full of viruses and malware.

I can give countless other examples. Where would we be with data scientice without the Map/Reduce and GFS papers?

Why did Google give it away?

How about Borg and now we have K8s? Why did they give that away?

Or the source code to so many different systems. Or why on earth when you own the front and back end and come up with SPDY did you give it away? Then the standard group changes it and you still spend the money to make sure you are standard.

Probably one of the biggest is VP8 and VP9. The MPEG-LA was trying to exort us for license fees. Google not only gives away VP8 for free but then on top tells people they will protect them from patent infringement.

Google even gave it away to competitors.

Do you realize even though Google has tons and tons of IP they have not sued another company for infringement? I mean never! That helps all of us.

Waymo did go after Uber but that was not Google. I suspect Waymo will be handled differently as they are not giving everything away like Google.

The other case was a suit started by Moto before Google purchase that they let go.

Then we have Shellshock, Meltdown, Spectre, Heartbleed, Cloudbleed among others all found from Google.

Heck Google found the Cloudbleed bug and shared with Cloudflare for free including the mitigation even though they are freaking competitors!! Google spent money to help them. Now how on earth is that not morals? Doing the right thing? But what drives your posts?

Google shared the Meltdown mitigation with MS and Amazon so they could save money

I can not think of any tech company that has given back nearly as much as Google. So many times deciding to do what is right versus what would have made them a buck.

Can you name any company in history that has given back as much as Google? Look at the papers they have shared with things like Wavenet, and AlphaGo and BigTable and a big new one Google Beyond Corp and literally 100s of others?

Parc gave back a lot as well as Bell labs but if we look at the benefit to the industry I would say Google has given more. Part of it is the industry is also much bigger.

Long post but not what I care about. I am insanely curious by nature and I just have to know what drives the half truths over and over again you post on HN about Google?

Is it your job? Why?

It seems to be the only contribution you make to HN is to make something up or twist something over and over again.

Please share why?

Re: Google Won't Renew Contract for Project Maven, Pentagon Drone AI Imaging Program

#126

The thing I think everyone needs to remember for the future is that Google is only backing off on Maven because of the bad PR. They aren't suddenly growing a conscience, and you can be sure that given the chance to secretly get involved in a horribly unethical program for hundreds of millions of dollars is still definitely an option for them.

Think if we look at actual actions of Google we can see they already had a conscious. I assume what "conscience" was intended? Perfect example is China. The government was trying to hack in Gmail account and Google decided to leave China even though a ton of money to be made. Versus Apple handed over all their user data to the government with a complete disregard for privacy to make a buck. "Campaign targets Apple ov…

I think there's a large difference between Google leaving china due to hacking vs working as a U.S. defense contractor.

A lot of people look at Google as something more than just a U.S based company and is considered as more of an international company in this regard. So, when Google's parent company decides to align heavily with U.S military, then of course people working in Google, who come from all parts of the globe and cultures, will have a problem.

It would be interesting to see the demographics (age, culture & religious views) of those who openly protested.

I am sure I'd rather distance myself from Google if it continues to support U.S military contracts and the perfection of killing others.

Re: Google Won't Renew Contract for Project Maven, Pentagon Drone AI Imaging Program

#127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is bigger than Google. Microsoft, Amazon, Facebook, Oracle, Palantir, et al, will take this contract next. Google isn't the only company that can run DNNs to do image classification, it's commodified now. The DoD is going to pay money to get this software, it's inevitable, just like they got the Hydrogen bomb, and ICBMs, and biological weapons. Enough people exist out there who are smart and willing to work on i…

Presumably, a talented software engineer has literally hundreds of other options besides Google, Microsoft, Amazon, Facebook, Oracle, and Palantir though, right? I agree we need strict regulations on the use of AI in the military. It carries the same risks as nuclear weapons and chemical and biological weapons for disproportionate harm, but without the extreme cost. "I'm pretty sure there's plenty of HN readers who a…

Talented engineers do have a choice but Google has been the most desired place to work for a very long time.

In the last 10 years they have been the #1 place to work 6 of the last 10 years.

http://fortune.com/best-companies/2017/

http://reviews.greatplacetowork.com/2016-fortune-100-best-co...

http://fortune.com/best-companies/2015/

http://fortune.com/best-companies/2014/

So in 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016 and 2017 it has been Google.

That does not just happen. Plus we have not had anyone else do it 2 years in a row let alone 6 straight years!

Plus a lot of engineers want to work someplace that is interested in the greater good.

So do things like what Google did in China with leaving instead of doing what was morally wrong for a buck.

Also a lot of the top engineers want to publish and share and Google allows their engineers to do this.

Google does tons of open source also which is attractive to engineers.

The younger people are much more into companies interested in the greater good then just to make a buck.

It is why you see Google on top of the list so often and a company like Microsoft way down on the list and do not think has ever been a top company?

Re: Google Won't Renew Contract for Project Maven, Pentagon Drone AI Imaging Program

#128
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Instead of downvoting cryptoz, I encourage people to counter what he said with their own replies. The majority of his statements in this post are verifiable facts. (I do not know this person, fwiw).

The individual facts are verifiable, but the overall conclusion that "the US is the most wildly insane, two-faced and upside-down country in the world right now in terms of military" is a borderline troll comment - I sense a strong possibility that it is meant to elicit a reaction rather than engage in a dialogue. Not to the point that I'd advocate its removal, but enough for me to downvote and not respond. Seriously…

I am not trolling. That's ridiculous. I'm merely speaking the truth.

And yes I would make both of those claims. And I am a reasonable person. If you think that my statements above make me an "unreasonable person" just for my comments of fact and opinion, then you are the one trolling and attempting to invalidate my entire existence as a person.

I stand by my points.

Re: Google Won't Renew Contract for Project Maven, Pentagon Drone AI Imaging Program

#129
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Instead of downvoting cryptoz, I encourage people to counter what he said with their own replies. The majority of his statements in this post are verifiable facts. (I do not know this person, fwiw).

There’s a lot of bad political rhetoric and scare mingering that is frankly not even worthy of my time to address. Like, for example, that Trump will eliminate presidential elections and by implication install himself as president for life, or that he even has the authority or capability to do so.

Of course he doesn't have the authority to do so. He still plans on doing it and that is clearly unstable and not a 'feature' of a solid military you want to have.

I'm not the one fear mongering. It is the US government doing all the fear mongering. The "stable genuis" leading the country is the one doing the fear mongering.

Re: Google Won't Renew Contract for Project Maven, Pentagon Drone AI Imaging Program

#130
post #7

Great. There will be plenty of people willing to take Google's place.

Willing, but capable? Who has the AI, Maps, signals intelligence, and everything else capability to replace Google?

Baidu. ;- )
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