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The great video game exodus

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Re: The great video game exodus

#71
post #67
post #19

I believe that part of the problem is the attitude of major publishers towards game development. There is absolutely no consideration for the artistic value of their works - they will manipulate the end product, and the developers, in any way to maximize short-term profit at the cost of everything else. Take as an example - the current loot box (gambling) controversy. Publishers have pushed this mechanic to an extrem…

>There is absolutely no consideration for the artistic value of their works. Artistic value derives from uniqueness. The commoditization of the game industry may be a sign that not much distinctive artistic value is created nowadays, that games increasingly look like each other.

No, it doesn't. Art is 95% craft, 5% inspiration. If an artist doesn't put in his 10,000 hours learning his craft, then being unique won't save him from being mediocre.

Artistic endeavors are much like PhDs in that you're making a small dent on the edge of pop culture. Without the long hours learning craft you'll never reach the edge. Everything unique you do will be stolen by people who know the craft better and they're the ones that will get famous from it.

Re: The great video game exodus

#72
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So how _does_ it actually work then?

Tried to address that a few comments up. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17218381 Sorry it's a wall of text. I suck at brevity. In my defense it's a complex topic and I'm trying to credit some good points on both sides. And ok, I was too flip in my last comment, frustrated that its parent seemed to completely ignore my main point. At their best, maybe some unions do still work that way. Many don't though. Most b…

It's funny that you're worried about criminality on the side of workers, not the owners:

"Eventually, however, it was corruption that led Scrivano to leave the industry, after one of his studio’s investors stole the majority of the company’s funds and disappeared without trace."

Clearly, the person who made off with the money would not benefit from a union.

Re: The great video game exodus

#73

Supply and demand. Game developers: very sexy, easy to show off, has a (very) large supply of talent. Pay not bad, not good, work schedule very demanding. COBOL developer: extremely unsexy, almost don't want to admit it publicly. Tiny supply, relatively much larger demand. Pay very good. Work schedule very predictable, not demanding. Almost a vacation. Supply and demand. Ignore at your own peril.

[deleted]

Re: The great video game exodus

#75
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So how _does_ it actually work then?

Tried to address that a few comments up. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17218381 Sorry it's a wall of text. I suck at brevity. In my defense it's a complex topic and I'm trying to credit some good points on both sides. And ok, I was too flip in my last comment, frustrated that its parent seemed to completely ignore my main point. At their best, maybe some unions do still work that way. Many don't though. Most b…

Any organization that centralizes power will become a target for others (individuals or orgs) to leverage/abuse that power. This is not limited to unions. We have centuries of laws and evolution of governance models to address known threats. The certainty of new threats is insufficient reason to abandon organized cooperation, because we can develop new defenses.

e.g. how about decentralization into smaller, independent, labor organizations focused on local issues, which build on open-source legal artifacts for governance, negotiations, threats and defenses?

Re: The great video game exodus

#76
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the vast majority of people who want to be actors suck at being one. It's difficult to reduce the dimensionality of people down to one continuous variable, let alone one binary variable; though some actors, I will concede, could almost manage this. There's few objective criteria we can actually define a good/suck scale on. Acting quality is very subjective. I tend to find unknown European actors far more convincing…

As Hollywood was originally mentioned, I did not think it needs clarifying that I am talking about professional careers. Of course somebody could be an amazing actor playing Santa at the mall from the point of view of children sitting on his lap. > If we define developers by money they are expected to make for the studio, I'd imagine EA and King employees must be pretty high up. It depends on employees, both EA and K…

> As Hollywood was originally mentioned, I did not think it needs clarifying that I am talking about professional careers.

The majority of Hollywood actors are good at being Hollywood actors. Much of that seems to be more about maintaining an off-screen presence. For some reason many are celebrated. My point is that they may have fantastic careers and be household names, but that does not seem to correlate to acting ability.

> Of course somebody could be an amazing actor playing Santa at the mall from the point of view of children sitting on his lap.

I was not talking about actors playing Santa at the mall. I was talking about professional actors that are relatively unknown because they act in non-Hollywood productions. Few of these actors would be of interest to Hollywood.

If you look at European actors careers, they make a fraction of the money of their Hollywood counterparts but seem to have a multiple of the ability. I have watched some play different characters, all very different, to the point where you wouldn't recognise them by the character they play. They are believable as that character and bring the character to life. I struggle to say this about even the more respected Hollywood actors, because they are often cast to be very similar to the character they were in something else. There are actors that do buck this trend to avoid becoming typecast.

To me, acting is a skill where you try to bring a character to life. It involves understanding that character, feeling what they feel, portraying that feeling on camera. This is something that is lacking in Hollywood productions.

> It depends on employees, both EA and King own multiple studios and have thousands of people working on projects, which don't make a dime of profit.

Indeed. But this is true of Hollywood. There are films with big name stars in it that have been complete flops. Blade Runner 2049 had Ryan Gosling and Harrison Ford in it, both successful actors, but made a loss. Alcon entertainment, the main production company, certainly has overall commercial success.

> However, on a studio scale you will notice that studios making successful games repeatedly do not have many horror stories about them and if you look into credits for those games you will see the same individuals working on such games for many years.

The phenomenon you describe to me would in fact suggest that it is less down to individuals than the studio attracting the right people or at least not rejecting them. Perhaps people who are more passionate about making good games can't suffer being in a team that is churning out bad games. I'm not sure this is simply down to the one-dimensional projection of the people being bad developers. You can be passionate about development and have limited development skill. I'm not sure it's necessarily better to have the technical skills and be dispassionate.

Re: The great video game exodus

#77
post #42

I think the video game industry is literally run like the movie industry except there is no union to help the people who make the actual magic happen unlike say the entertainment industry. I realize that some hate unions but some things on this world literally could not happen unless we respect people, their time, and their families. Some things are worth more than money and I"m grateful for the games I get to play.…

One other parallel that interests me comes up in this article. Frank D’Angelo got into games because he loved them as a kid. And that's ultimately what guaranteed that he'd be treated poorly: so many people want to get into games that there's always another sucker to take his place. It's the same thing with acting. The number of people who want to be Hollywood actors is much smaller than the number of people who end…

>The number of people who want to be Hollywood actors is much smaller than the number of people who end up succeeding.

*larger

Re: The great video game exodus

#78
I think the comparison with actors is a valid one and we can draw parallels with the YouTube “creator movement” basically actors/performers who are too smart to fight the herd and went out on their own.

If you’re being asked to work more than 50-60 hour weeks consistently and not paid for it you must do what you can to change jobs/industry/city/country.

Re: The great video game exodus

#79
Even if you got experience, you will never get leverage in thise industry. The reason is the mythos of the gamedeveloper, drawing in new people (mostly young "I-want-to-make-a-game" idealists) with Stars in theire eyes. Its the same-thing, that allows Hollywood to abuse young actresses- who will not resist, because there "are millions more where you came from". Supply and demand.

Idealists make for excellent rocket fuel, and if they are burned out, you dump the husk and make another run for it with new material.

You cant unionize this, because this cycle is the default operation mode and students joining up dont have unions or reasons to join one.

You cant either unionize the actors or fashion-model industry. What can be done - is destroying the glamorous image in the head of the youth.

Which has partially happened allready, and is why everybody wants to go indy.

Re: The great video game exodus

#80
I don't think this is new. 20 years ago, I loved game programming.. I even chose a game dev library in C++ as my senior (college) project. But my obsession also led me to read all I could about the industry, and the stories were the same. I got nervous about the 14-hour-a-day, 7-day-a-week eternal crunch time, the pay, the job security, the lack of prospects without moving around. I chickened out.

I still like my job, but it's nothing like the passion I felt when I built games. Still, I don't think that passion is enough to justify the strain it would put on my family through financial risk, not to mention my work/life balance (or in this case, work/slightly less work balance).

Since it was the same then as now, I suspect it may continue to be. After all, it's a job with inherent joy for people who want it, and those tend to have the luxury of materially rewarding workers less. Much as bars can basically pay bands little to nothing in order to have live music, because there's no shortage of people wanting it just for the inherent joy, I imagine game companies will continue to have a pool of creative technicians willing to work for less. Maybe the higher barrier of entry to learn tech work will change something one day, but it doesn't appear to have done so, so far.

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