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The great video game exodus

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Re: The great video game exodus

#61

Post by pandaman »

wpietri wrote: post #42
kraig911 wrote: post #22

I think the video game industry is literally run like the movie industry except there is no union to help the people who make the actual magic happen unlike say the entertainment industry. I realize that some hate unions but some things on this world literally could not happen unless we respect people, their time, and their families. Some things are worth more than money and I"m grateful for the games I get to play.…

One other parallel that interests me comes up in this article. Frank D’Angelo got into games because he loved them as a kid. And that's ultimately what guaranteed that he'd be treated poorly: so many people want to get into games that there's always another sucker to take his place. It's the same thing with acting. The number of people who want to be Hollywood actors is much smaller than the number of people who end…

This comparison goes further - the vast majority of people who want to be actors suck at being one. Or musicians. Or writers. Or any other artists. Few who have talent/luck/x-factor get money and fame, the rest wash out.

Yet, somehow, it's believed that games are completely different and everyone who wants to make games is good enough to be able make living off it.

Re: The great video game exodus

#62

Post by TheOtherHobbes »

brownbat wrote: post #56
chii wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So how _does_ it actually work then?

Tried to address that a few comments up. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17218381 Sorry it's a wall of text. I suck at brevity. In my defense it's a complex topic and I'm trying to credit some good points on both sides. And ok, I was too flip in my last comment, frustrated that its parent seemed to completely ignore my main point. At their best, maybe some unions do still work that way. Many don't though. Most b…

Legal structures are meaningless without the political and economic power to enforce them.

But beyond that, it’s about values. You can’t start with a business culture that rewards competitive greed and narcissism over empathy and cooperation and expect it to suddenly start acting against its own core ethics.

Re: The great video game exodus

#63

Post by dpwm »

pandaman wrote: post #61
wpietri wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One other parallel that interests me comes up in this article. Frank D’Angelo got into games because he loved them as a kid. And that's ultimately what guaranteed that he'd be treated poorly: so many people want to get into games that there's always another sucker to take his place. It's the same thing with acting. The number of people who want to be Hollywood actors is much smaller than the number of people who end…

This comparison goes further - the vast majority of people who want to be actors suck at being one. Or musicians. Or writers. Or any other artists. Few who have talent/luck/x-factor get money and fame, the rest wash out. Yet, somehow, it's believed that games are completely different and everyone who wants to make games is good enough to be able make living off it.

> the vast majority of people who want to be actors suck at being one.

It's difficult to reduce the dimensionality of people down to one continuous variable, let alone one binary variable; though some actors, I will concede, could almost manage this.

There's few objective criteria we can actually define a good/suck scale on. Acting quality is very subjective. I tend to find unknown European actors far more convincing than many big name US actors who are chosen to play basically the same character over and over again and perform the same limited two-or-three facial expressions from the set of {happy, sad, angry, confused}. As we've come to learn recently through scandal, performance on screen may not always be the first consideration of some studio execs.

If you're talking financially, that's great: we have an objective measure. If the whole point of being an actor is to make money for themselves, then I can tell you who the great ones are. To the studios though, perhaps it's the actors that will pull in the crowds but not cost too much that are the best. In other words, the amount of money they are expected to make for the studio.

Let's look at the games industry. To be a successful games developer we think we can probably agree on what is good. But to a manager I should imagine a good games developer is someone who helps ship on time and doesn't come to their door telling them what nobody else dares tell them that the bugs that QA found are deep, hard to fix and morale is low. Again, if we define by earnings tor the individual I'm not even sure where pays well.

If we define developers by money they are expected to make for the studio, I'd imagine EA and King employees must be pretty high up.

Re: The great video game exodus

#64

Post by pandaman »

dpwm wrote: post #63
pandaman wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This comparison goes further - the vast majority of people who want to be actors suck at being one. Or musicians. Or writers. Or any other artists. Few who have talent/luck/x-factor get money and fame, the rest wash out. Yet, somehow, it's believed that games are completely different and everyone who wants to make games is good enough to be able make living off it.

> the vast majority of people who want to be actors suck at being one. It's difficult to reduce the dimensionality of people down to one continuous variable, let alone one binary variable; though some actors, I will concede, could almost manage this. There's few objective criteria we can actually define a good/suck scale on. Acting quality is very subjective. I tend to find unknown European actors far more convincing…

As Hollywood was originally mentioned, I did not think it needs clarifying that I am talking about professional careers. Of course somebody could be an amazing actor playing Santa at the mall from the point of view of children sitting on his lap.

> If we define developers by money they are expected to make for the studio, I'd imagine EA and King employees must be pretty high up.

It depends on employees, both EA and King own multiple studios and have thousands of people working on projects, which don't make a dime of profit. However, on a studio scale you will notice that studios making successful games repeatedly do not have many horror stories about them and if you look into credits for those games you will see the same individuals working on such games for many years.

Re: The great video game exodus

#65

Post by ekianjo »

kraig911 wrote: post #22

I think the video game industry is literally run like the movie industry except there is no union to help the people who make the actual magic happen unlike say the entertainment industry. I realize that some hate unions but some things on this world literally could not happen unless we respect people, their time, and their families. Some things are worth more than money and I"m grateful for the games I get to play.…

> there is no union to help the people who make the actual magic happen

Seeing the number of turds that Hollywood produces continuously, I fail to see the promised "magic" that unions help create.

Re: The great video game exodus

#66

Post by Kenji »

“The day that I joined I had to sign a contract that basically said anything I created during or outside of company time is owned by ZeniMax. Even on my own hardware, or at a game jam.” Kelly wavered for a few moments – signing the contract would limit any chance to work on side projects -- then decided to sign regardless. “To be clear, many people worked on personal projects and for the most part ZeniMax didn’t care,” he says. “I think it was more on principle [that] I had a problem.”

No, this is a legitimate concern. Clauses like this should be illegal. What you do in your spare time is yours. What the hell, what are you, a slave? These clauses are there to disincentivize you doing things beside your work, so that your employer can take up even more room in your life. I would never sign such a contract.

Re: The great video game exodus

#67

Post by dgudkov »

Fej wrote: post #19

I believe that part of the problem is the attitude of major publishers towards game development. There is absolutely no consideration for the artistic value of their works - they will manipulate the end product, and the developers, in any way to maximize short-term profit at the cost of everything else. Take as an example - the current loot box (gambling) controversy. Publishers have pushed this mechanic to an extrem…

>There is absolutely no consideration for the artistic value of their works.

Artistic value derives from uniqueness. The commoditization of the game industry may be a sign that not much distinctive artistic value is created nowadays, that games increasingly look like each other.

Re: The great video game exodus

#69

Post by dgudkov »

wpietri wrote: post #42
kraig911 wrote: post #22

I think the video game industry is literally run like the movie industry except there is no union to help the people who make the actual magic happen unlike say the entertainment industry. I realize that some hate unions but some things on this world literally could not happen unless we respect people, their time, and their families. Some things are worth more than money and I"m grateful for the games I get to play.…

One other parallel that interests me comes up in this article. Frank D’Angelo got into games because he loved them as a kid. And that's ultimately what guaranteed that he'd be treated poorly: so many people want to get into games that there's always another sucker to take his place. It's the same thing with acting. The number of people who want to be Hollywood actors is much smaller than the number of people who end…

The problem with Hollywood is that a pretty face and sexy body is valued more than good acting. When market value of a good is diminished to a single dimension (which is sexiness in case of Hollywood) it's a sign of market commoditization with price being the single advantage. And a highly commoditized market is a cruel place. Always.

Re: The great video game exodus

#70

Post by jelly »

brownbat wrote: post #44
kraig911 wrote: post #22

I think the video game industry is literally run like the movie industry except there is no union to help the people who make the actual magic happen unlike say the entertainment industry. I realize that some hate unions but some things on this world literally could not happen unless we respect people, their time, and their families. Some things are worth more than money and I"m grateful for the games I get to play.…

> I realize that some hate unions but some things on this world literally could not happen unless we respect people, their time, and their families. The cornerstone of the case against unions isn't that we should stop respecting people, it's that unions are often no longer the best way to accomplish that goal. Not to detract from early labor movements, the fights for basic workplace safety and overtime in the twentie…

>The cornerstone of the case against unions isn't that we should stop respecting people, it's that unions are often no longer the best way to accomplish that goal.

>Generally we need to move those solutions into less partial laws and courts, instead of creating another unchecked center of power over workers.

Those most in need of the labor rights and respect unions traditionally afford are often those who have almost no access to the legal system. Fundamental problems like that are very difficult to fix, so in the meantime unions are the best way to accomplish that goal.

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