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GDPR: US news sites unavailable to EU users over data protection rules

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Re: GDPR: US news sites unavailable to EU users over data protection rules

#461

Post by elorant »

repolfx wrote: post #416
elorant wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By hosting non-tracking ads. Like they used to be before Google started this whole profiling menace.

Did you use the internet back then? Do you remember what online ads were like before AdSense? My god. They sucked so hard! AdSense was a revolution.

AdSense was definitely a revolution in many fronts, especially because it enabled small sites to start earning a decent income. And for that we'd be eternally grateful to Google. On the other hand Google back then didn't have the variety of products they have now so profiling was much less intrusive.

Re: GDPR: US news sites unavailable to EU users over data protection rules

#462

Post by mrtksn »

ryanwaggoner wrote: post #445
mrtksn wrote: post #441

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So do you argue that businesses that do business over the internet should be subject to the laws where the business is legally based? So, do you say that EU businesses should be able to operate in the USA but according to the EU laws and without any consideration to the US laws? Or is your arguments something else, something selfish like all online businesses should operate according to the US laws or something like…

So, do you say that EU businesses should be able to operate in the USA but according to the EU laws and without any consideration to the US laws? If by "operate in the US" you mean that they are based in the EU and allow US residents to visit their website and purchase from them, then yes, absolutely. Why would it be any other way? I just don't see how the alternative works at all. Why couldn't some city in France pa…

Well, "HQ based law" not the case and it's a much larger discussion that doesn't have anything to do with the GDPR or EU.

The USA too is going after foreign companies doing business with Iran or Cuba. The USA is not happy with cryptocurrency ICO's and it's enforcing it. The USA is forcing the world to respect DMCA.

The taxes are also an issue, even within the USA doe to different VAT in different states.

These are topics that have been in discussion since the beginning of the internet and the dust is just settling and the solution is not simple as "You obey to the laws according to the country you're based in". It's a huge huge topic.

Edit: And FYI, many countries do enforce a tax on foreign purchases. For example, Turkey will be forcing American internet giants to charge VAT to its Turkish clients and transfer that VAT to the Turkish government. Countries want to collect taxes, you can't really get away with "I am an American company so I operate tax-free" argument. Politicians will work out an arrangement like "I will make your tax law enforceable on my companies if you let me use your military base and purchase weapons".

Re: GDPR: US news sites unavailable to EU users over data protection rules

#463

Post by oldcynic »

fixermark wrote: post #430
tommorris wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was thinking about getting in to the car market but all these pesky requirements that I sell a car with airbags and seatbelts and fuel efficiency compliance are just there to protect existing incumbents.

You can make fun of it, but there's a reason that Silicon Valley venture capital goes to software engineering (where regulations have generally been lower) while significant disruption in the automotive space is coming from incumbents and one company founded by a guy with a net worth of $18 billion.

That would be the self same reason the net is starting to attract regulation. Some of that significant disruption basically involves extending a middle finger to the laws and regulations of the country they want to do business in. I might call it taking the piss.

Taking the piss with laws and employment rights such as Deliveroo etc, or taking the piss with user data and personal privacy.

We'll be left with some of the regulation long after many of the disruptors that caused it have burnt out.

Re: GDPR: US news sites unavailable to EU users over data protection rules

#464

Post by stale2002 »

craigsmansion wrote: post #423
ams6110 wrote: post #364

Facebook, Google, Instagram and WhatsApp are accused of forcing users to consent to targeted advertising to use the services. Privacy group noyb.eu, led by activist Max Schrems, said people were not being given a "free choice". I mean, that just isn't a valid complaint IMO. You have a choice -- you can not use Facebook, or not use Google, or not use Instagram, or not use WhatsApp. If you're using a "free" service tha…

No, Facebook, Google, Instagram, and Whatsapp have a choice, on whether they want to continue operating in the European market. > why do you think you have a right to use it without consenting to the ads? Consenting to targetted ads. That's a big difference. All operators can show ads like they always have, but they can't specifically tailor them to the individual, using accumulated data, without their consent.

Yes, and this is the decision that Facebook and Google have made.

They will only operate for users that have given their consent, and have chosen not to do business with those who do not.

Isn't this what you want? They are fully complying with the law and only doing business with people who have consented.

Re: GDPR: US news sites unavailable to EU users over data protection rules

#465

Post by craigsmansion »

ryanwaggoner wrote: post #442
craigsmansion wrote: post #438

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference is that one is an example of actual and well-thought out legislation in the EU which is generally welcomed by the people most affected by it: EU citizens. The other is a trumped up example by someone on whom the GDPR self-admittedly has hardly any bearing but who still insists on throwing a hissy fit because legislation is somehow un-american or something.

I disagree on "well thought out", but it doesn't really matter. I don't think that legislation is "un-american" or that the EU shouldn't have passed this law for its citizens. My issue is with the attempt to declare that it applies so broadly to organizations in other countries who have no connection to the EU except that EU visitors might come to their website. I'm going to assume you're intentionally not trying to…

There is no conspiracy here.

If you don't do business with the EU, the EU has nothing on you. They have no other mechanism for enforcing compliance.

If you would disrespect the king of Thailand, and you would go to Thailand, they might act on their laws and lock you up.

If you would break Eu privacy laws, and you would try and do business with the EU, they might act on their laws and enforce their fines.

There is no precedent being set here. Even the US is more than willing to freeze assets of foreign actors when they believe they have been wronged abroad.

If you ignore the EU and the GDPR completely, nothing can touch you, you just can't do business with them until you stop ignoring them

Re: GDPR: US news sites unavailable to EU users over data protection rules

#466

Post by pilsetnieks »

repolfx wrote: post #416
elorant wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By hosting non-tracking ads. Like they used to be before Google started this whole profiling menace.

Did you use the internet back then? Do you remember what online ads were like before AdSense? My god. They sucked so hard! AdSense was a revolution.

It wasn't privacy invasions that made the ads better, it was Google making the process easier. Instead of dealing with shady smaller networks, or individual sites (which only businesses that extracted high value from online presence could afford, e.g. gambling,) any business could then easily and safely publish their ads widely. That is not going away, and advertising in the EU will still exist.

Re: GDPR: US news sites unavailable to EU users over data protection rules

#467

Post by Tomte »

bmelton wrote: post #414
eyeinthepyramid wrote: post #378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are benefits to washing the eggs, isn't there? I have read that in Europe as a consumer it's a lot more important to wash the eggs before using them.

You should definitely wash the eggs before you cook with them. As you mention, that is de rigueur for Europeans, as it is in America for things like lettuce and potatoes.

I can only speak for Germany, but I haven‘t ever seen anyone wash eggs, neither when cooking, nor when frying.

Re: GDPR: US news sites unavailable to EU users over data protection rules

#468

Post by jimmaswell »

microtonal wrote: post #412
lajhsdfkl wrote: post #359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Obviously if ads are less targeted then they may be less effective so advertisers will make less on ads that cost more. This will hurt their bottom line, which in turn will make the products we buy more expensive. But that's exactly the end goal. I want to pay for things (information, products) with more money rather than with slightly less money and all my integrity. I'm sure you considered all the poor people acro…

I'm sure you considered all the poor people across the world that are subsidized by the ad driven model we use today. A lot of them are poor, because we don't want to pay a decent amount for the products that we consume and instead rely on people working in sweatshops in third-world countries. You don't solve poverty by giving them 'free' products that require them to give you all their private data. You solve povert…

This is a false dilemma. There's no reason we can't both work towards better wages for everybody and support cheaper services for poor people in the meantime.

Re: GDPR: US news sites unavailable to EU users over data protection rules

#469

Post by stale2002 »

mrmekon wrote: post #203
ryanwaggoner wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What exactly do you want here? Do you want every site to have you upload your passport? Or are you just saying that any jurisdiction in the world should be able to effectively force every company globally to comply with their laws, and that they can’t pull out of those markets if they find the law too onerous? Forget about the intent of the GDPR, what about the broader principle when applied to laws you don’t like? W…

My comment doesn't make a statement about how things should be. It's a statement about the complexities of a technical implementation: _If_ it is true that the GDPR covers an EU person's data held by any company worldwide, regardless of how or whether it should, an IP block might not be accepted as compliance. Or it might, if the EU regulators decide that best-effort is enough. The important point is that many Europe…

Well then these EU users are illegally accessing a computer and have broken the computer fraud and abuse act.

These users should be prosecuted to the fullest extent in the US for their illegal computer usage.

Re: GDPR: US news sites unavailable to EU users over data protection rules

#470

Post by jimmaswell »

krisdol wrote: post #353
tormeh wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They can even be dynamic. Filter on location, uplink/computer speed, screen size, browser etc. None of it requires storing data. Adtech might move to correlating all these things + the website visited to target particular demographics.

They can also be quite smart. What was your referrer, what's your user flow through the site, what do similar users do when arriving from the same pages and searches? What time of day is it for the visitor? ie: figure out why they are doing what they're doing and direct them to ads that capture that intent.

I'm not certain but much of that sounds like the kind of information GDPR doesn't let you use like that.
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