Germany Acts to Tame Facebook, Learning from Its Own History of Hate • Hacker News Board

Re: Germany Acts to Tame Facebook, Learning from Its Own History of Hate

#121

Post by pimmen » Sun, May 20, 2018, 3:02 PM UTC

virmundi wrote: post #46

I wonder, out loud to all you HN lawyers, if not officially supporting an EU country gets you out of EU law. If a site offers no official language support, does it have to follow Germany's law simply because a German saw it?

They have to follow German law because they have German users, German customers (German companies buying ads), use German infrastructure, German marketing and German offices housing German employees.

If they would like to turn their back to an 80 million people market, sure. However, if this becomes the EU standard, it jumps up to a market of almost 500 million people. Hard to turn that down.

Re: Germany Acts to Tame Facebook, Learning from Its Own History of Hate

#122

Post by seertaak » Sun, May 20, 2018, 3:40 PM UTC

vanderreeah wrote: post #120

seertaak wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If someone spray painted a swastika on your house, how would you react? Where I live (Görlitzer Park), those kinds of signs are literally everywhere -- only they're the leftwing equivalent, calling for bloody revolution, for the rich to be booted from their homes, racists and xenophobes to be punched, etc. I'm actually pretty relaxed about it -- a bunch of 20 year olds who get their kicks spray painting while drink…

I don't know if I can prove you wrong, but in my opinion your example of Karl Marx's 200th birthday is misjudged. As far as I know he neither killed nor ordered to be killed anyone. He is no more responsible for people (I assume you have Stalin in mind) twisting his thought than is anyone else. To follow that logic to its conclusion you would also need to express outrage at Christmas, or at the depiction of Jesus on…

Fair point -- the Marx remark is a little unfair.

Re: Germany Acts to Tame Facebook, Learning from Its Own History of Hate

#123

Post by Faark » Sun, May 20, 2018, 3:41 PM UTC

kodablah wrote: post #52

MereKatMoves wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the deluge of anti-FB, anti-Goog, anti-Twitter, etc articles. Maybe I'm viewing this too broadly, but I get an icky feeling of intentional furor construction. Those companies are enabling the criminals. German law defines the users as criminals and it is this pre-internet law that is being upgraded and enforced, because profiting from enabling illegal activity is clearly wrong. FB employs 1200 people to deal with t…

Ok...I mean you see it that way and I don't really agree, but that is unrelated to my comment. Mine is a general comment about the flow of "news" concerning large web companies. It feels like this article was just the next one on the weekend assembly line. I'm not really a fan of manipulation even if I agree w/ the manipulators. Granted, my observations are my own based on the news cycles and my limited empirical evi…

Could you be a bit more specific about your criticism of the article. I found it interesting. I don't really see how it is anti-FB. It seems to describe the current situation by anecdotes instead of statistics/scientific analysis. I can understand some not liking that style (especially considering information per time), but it seems highly effective at describing issues to most people (probably the thing you call media narrative control). I've got no problem with that.

But your "There is nothing substantive here" is worrying me, since it probably means you'd like more that a somewhat mundane description of the situation without judgment. Did you expect a strong position, probably in favor of US free speech values? It to be a hit piece for or against NetzDG? Strong policy recommendations with big impacts? I don't want that! I like our current society and want marginal fixes for its countless little flaws. But responding to the current hot issue (lets say school shootings) with extremist positions (arm everyone vs take all guns away) seems highly unproductive in improving our lives.

Re: Germany Acts to Tame Facebook, Learning from Its Own History of Hate

#124

Post by seertaak » Sun, May 20, 2018, 3:49 PM UTC

eksemplar wrote: post #117

seertaak wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If someone spray painted a swastika on your house, how would you react? Where I live (Görlitzer Park), those kinds of signs are literally everywhere -- only they're the leftwing equivalent, calling for bloody revolution, for the rich to be booted from their homes, racists and xenophobes to be punched, etc. I'm actually pretty relaxed about it -- a bunch of 20 year olds who get their kicks spray painting while drink…

I view it a lot less like a battle between the establishment and the barbarians at the gate, and much more a struggle to take away the megaphone from the village idiot. We’ve always had people who called vaccines dangerous against better evidence, but platforms like facebook, allowed these people to construct their own realities, and as a result people are now dying from diseases that have been extinct for more than…

This comment is rather amusing -- probably unwittingly so -- when juxtaposed with (your) preceding post. In one, you ask us to empathize with the feelings of one group of people, those who are flustered by seeing (horrible) extremist propaganda. In the very next, not only are those finely-tuned emotional antennae manifestly off, but... well, suggesting a rather large cohort of people are mentally disabled? This from the person that wishes to portray themselves as the adult who needs "take their megaphones", which I understand as code for "let's have any comments they make on FB or other social networks erased". A little childish, perhaps?

What do I make of these two comments? How I read them is as follows: you're so utterly sure of your position -- because you're likely inclined to believe it, and because you've been bombarded with messages confirming it ("the others are stupid") -- that you're quite literally failing to engage your brain. Instead, you're making lazy, emotive arguments.

So thanks for proving my point: the claims that one should consider so-and-so's feelings, the supposed humanism. That's just BS, isn't it?

Re: Germany Acts to Tame Facebook, Learning from Its Own History of Hate

#125

Post by pteredactyl » Sun, May 20, 2018, 3:50 PM UTC

seertaak wrote: post #115

eksemplar wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If someone spray painted a swastika on your house, how would you react? That’s basically what people are doing to the Facebook platform, and Facebook is fine with it. Which is weird, because they are already censoring you considering there is a long range of things you can’t share in their platform, such as pictures of you breastfeeding your baby. I’m not sure why breastfeeding is considered worse than hate speech at…

> If someone spray painted a swastika on your house, how would you react? Where I live (Görlitzer Park), those kinds of signs are literally everywhere -- only they're the leftwing equivalent, calling for bloody revolution, for the rich to be booted from their homes, racists and xenophobes to be punched, etc. I'm actually pretty relaxed about it -- a bunch of 20 year olds who get their kicks spray painting while drink…

If their tactics are patently obvious why do you suppose they'll prevail?

Re: Germany Acts to Tame Facebook, Learning from Its Own History of Hate

#126

Post by seertaak » Sun, May 20, 2018, 3:55 PM UTC

pteredactyl wrote: post #125

seertaak wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If someone spray painted a swastika on your house, how would you react? Where I live (Görlitzer Park), those kinds of signs are literally everywhere -- only they're the leftwing equivalent, calling for bloody revolution, for the rich to be booted from their homes, racists and xenophobes to be punched, etc. I'm actually pretty relaxed about it -- a bunch of 20 year olds who get their kicks spray painting while drink…

If their tactics are patently obvious why do you suppose they'll prevail?

Because they're in power. I recommend Jacques Ellul's Propaganda. The fact that the tactics are totally obvious is, in fact, exactly the point. They serve not to convince, but remind who has the power.

Ellul has a passage in which ancient Chinese poetry is "analyzed" by communist party members. This was served in classrooms of course. And the analysis was manifestly ridiculous. Anyone who reads it can't help but chuckle at the ham-fisted attempt to suggest that a poem about the sky, actually was referring to the glorious peoples revolution.

But: read that every day, hear in class every year, hear 1000 messages that confirm and reinforce this crazy, idiotic, message, and you can't help but be affected by it.

That is the nature of propaganda. In it's essence, it is a demonstration, an exercise of power. There is nothing subtle about it, and only part of it is covert.

Re: Germany Acts to Tame Facebook, Learning from Its Own History of Hate

#127

Post by pteredactyl » Sun, May 20, 2018, 4:01 PM UTC

kodablah wrote: post #11

What even is this article? There is nothing substantive here. Like many other mainstream tech articles these days, this reeks of mass-media narrative control. I just wonder if it's the clicks that drive these or if there are other actors behind the scenes encouraging the deluge of anti-FB, anti-Goog, anti-Twitter, etc articles. Maybe I'm viewing this too broadly, but I get an icky feeling of intentional furor constru…

Legacy media is threatened by social media. So they focus on the bad parts and use what power they have remaining to shame and try to shut down social media.

When in reality, I believe, social media has done more to connect people and show them more possible lives than anything in history.

Journalism in its best form is first-hand. Meaning, those images and videos of events you see are most likely coming from an eyewitness on the ground, who happened to be there. Legacy journalism will have to evolve to survive. So far its devolved

Re: Germany Acts to Tame Facebook, Learning from Its Own History of Hate

#128

Post by seertaak » Sun, May 20, 2018, 4:03 PM UTC

seertaak wrote: post #126

pteredactyl wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If their tactics are patently obvious why do you suppose they'll prevail?

Because they're in power. I recommend Jacques Ellul's Propaganda . The fact that the tactics are totally obvious is, in fact, exactly the point . They serve not to convince, but remind who has the power. Ellul has a passage in which ancient Chinese poetry is "analyzed" by communist party members. This was served in classrooms of course. And the analysis was manifestly ridiculous. Anyone who reads it can't help but ch…

Here's be passage in question:

```In on article in Pruula in May 1957. the Chinese writer Mao Dun wrote that the ancient poets of Chma used the following words to express the striving of the people toward a better life: The Bowers perfume the air. the moon shines, man has a long life " And he added: “Allow me to give a new explanation of these poetic terms The flowers perfume the air — this means that the flowers of the art of socialist realism are incomparably beautiful The moon shines — this means that the sputnik has opened a new era In the conquest of space Man has a long life — this means that the grout Soviet Union will live tens and tens of thousands of years “

When one reads this ouce, one smiles If one reads i* a thousand times, and no longer reads anything else, one must undergo a change. And we must reflect on the transformation of perspective already suffered by a whole society in which texts like this I pub- lished by the thousands) can be distributed and taken seriously not only by the authorities but by the intellectuals This complete change of perspective of the Weltanschauung is the primary totali- tarian element of propaganda.

```

Re: Germany Acts to Tame Facebook, Learning from Its Own History of Hate

#129

Post by eksemplar » Sun, May 20, 2018, 4:13 PM UTC

seertaak wrote: post #124

eksemplar wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I view it a lot less like a battle between the establishment and the barbarians at the gate, and much more a struggle to take away the megaphone from the village idiot. We’ve always had people who called vaccines dangerous against better evidence, but platforms like facebook, allowed these people to construct their own realities, and as a result people are now dying from diseases that have been extinct for more than…

This comment is rather amusing -- probably unwittingly so -- when juxtaposed with (your) preceding post. In one, you ask us to empathize with the feelings of one group of people, those who are flustered by seeing (horrible) extremist propaganda. In the very next, not only are those finely-tuned emotional antennae manifestly off, but... well, suggesting a rather large cohort of people are mentally disabled? This from…

What on earth gave you the impression that I was some sort of liberal lighthouse?

On parts of Facebook the value of a professor in medicine counts for less than the experiences of an average soccer mom, and you’re seriously telling me to accept that as a new norm because it might hurt someone’s feelings if I didn’t? Right.

Re: Germany Acts to Tame Facebook, Learning from Its Own History of Hate

#130

Post by KozmoNau7 » Sun, May 20, 2018, 4:21 PM UTC

naturalgradient wrote: post #101

KozmoNau7 wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How so? They are simply making people liable for breaking laws that already existed . How are they blocking you? How are they cementing their power by punishing people for inciting to violence against people with specific religious/political viewpoints or sexual orientations etc.?

You seem to be completely uninformed regarding the actual implementation of the law. Any criticism of anything can and will be deleted under the scope of the law. Want to criticise any policy? Hatespeech. Criticise religion? Hatespeech. It would of course never hold up in court, but that doesn't matter, for social media platforms deleting anything that could be construed as hate by anyone who feels offended is the pa…

I'm sorry, but you're spouting absolute nonsense. I have discussed this topic many times with my German girlfriend and her family in Germany (we live in Denmark), and you are so completely off on your "predictions", it's not even funny.

German law has a very specific definition of what material is targeted, and "hate speech" is an inadequate translation. Only public speech that incites violence against religious, political groups or sexual orientations and the like, will be targeted by this.

NOT general critique of religions, nor of political standpoints or anything of the sort. Only public speech that incites to violence.

You are utterly wrong in your scaremongering, and this is NOT the "end of free speech on German social media".