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Germany Acts to Tame Facebook, Learning from Its Own History of Hate

nytimes.com

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Re: Germany Acts to Tame Facebook, Learning from Its Own History of Hate

#31

Post by anonymouz »

Eridrus wrote: post #24
anonymouz wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you think the users are not liable for creating it?

AFAICT the new law largely doesn't effect individuals, but you're right the existing laws do criminalise hate speech, with prosecutions up over a few years ago: https://www.eurozine.com/no-freedom-to-hate-germanys-new-law... Still, the scale of the two issues - prosecutions vs platform censorship basically implies that most of the things being censored do not rise to that level of illegality.

Yes, the new thing is basically that the platforms are taking part in the enforcement. This provides a pragmatic and efficient solution:

* The illegal content can be removed quickly, without tying up resources in the prosecution of minor offenders. Prosecution can focus on the worst of them.

* The platforms get to play the role of a neutral party and are not themselves being responsible for distributing the illegal content.

Given the increased centralization on the Internet to a few of these platforms, this allows for efficient implementation of the law.

This is quite similar to the development of copyright law (in the US). The DMCA grants platforms immunity by actively taking part in the removal of illegal content when requested. I haven't checked the numbers, but I expect that here also the number of DMCA takedowns greatly outnumbers the copyright violation law suits (which would be kept for the worst offenders)

Re: Germany Acts to Tame Facebook, Learning from Its Own History of Hate

#32

Post by always_good »

danbruc wrote: post #25
blattimwind wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually Germany has a pretty clear definition and precedent of this and it is certainly nowhere near to being congruent with what Americans call hate speech. This likely makes the translation "hate speech" a factual error .

I don't know how good or bad the German definition of hate speech is, my point was more that even if there is or were no precise definition, it would still not be a huge problem. This just seems to be a rather popular misconceptions that laws require and are not useful without perfect definitions for everything. In reality there is a lot for variation, some things are totally nailed down, some things are intentionall…

The less something like "hate speech" is nailed down, the more the law can be used to criminalize anything.

There absolutely is a problem with these sorts of laws.

For example, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obscenity.

Re: Germany Acts to Tame Facebook, Learning from Its Own History of Hate

#33

Post by wirrbel »

Xeoncross wrote: post #29
blattimwind wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The NetzDG (which the article is about) exhaustively lists applicable statutes. Among them is Volksverhetzung, which is what is referred to here as hate speech, which is wildly inaccurate. Algolia says: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13039422#13043027 Here is the full text of the law in question: https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/netzdg/BJNR335210017.html (and here is a legally non-binding English translation:…

> Who does one of the following in a way apt to disturb/destroy public peace/harmony agitate against national/racial/religious or ethnic group, or against parts of the public or against private persons due to their belonging to a recognized group / part of the public, in order to incite hate or violence. attacking the human dignity of or defames or libels. - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13039422#13043027 Read…

not a lawyer, but I think the spirit of the law is to punish not those who hate, but those who instill hatred / potentially incite violence.

For example, I have never heard of someone being convicted of "Volksverhetzung" (demagogery, incitement of the masses) just because they were homophobic. Its when they incite other people is when that paragraph is applied.

Re: Germany Acts to Tame Facebook, Learning from Its Own History of Hate

#34

Post by ihsw2 »

And yet the hammer and sickle are regarded as symbols of freedom and Marxism is regarded as a movement to empower the oppressed. How revolting. Adherents to Communist ideology have killed many millions more than Nazis ever dreamed of and caused untold amounts of devastation over the past century.

Re: Germany Acts to Tame Facebook, Learning from Its Own History of Hate

#35

Post by im3w1l »

Germany acts to clamp down on free speach, learning from its own history of clamping down on free speech under both the communists and the nazis.

They are even hiring former stasi people to do it.

http://www.breitbart.com/london/2015/09/17/german-govt-hires...

Re: Germany Acts to Tame Facebook, Learning from Its Own History of Hate

#37

Post by joering2 »

dmoy wrote: post #21
Eridrus wrote: post #9

I find it interesting that platforms are liable for hosting hate speech, but individual users are not liable for creating it. It's also interesting that Human Rights Watch has come out against the German law: https://www.hrw.org/news/2018/02/14/germany-flawed-social-me...

Depending on the type of hate speech in Germany, you can get thrown in prison for up to 5 years.

Thats true. One of my ex classmates went first time abroad, and upon leaving zoll (german border) he told officer “heil hitler” out of pure excitement and probably too many historical movies watched (is there anything else to watch that is german made?). No amount of explanations was sufficient. He got 3 months behind bars and 10 years ban to visit germany. That was in 2007. I assume now its even worse.

Re: Germany Acts to Tame Facebook, Learning from Its Own History of Hate

#38

Post by [deleted] »

Eridrus wrote: post #9

I find it interesting that platforms are liable for hosting hate speech, but individual users are not liable for creating it. It's also interesting that Human Rights Watch has come out against the German law: https://www.hrw.org/news/2018/02/14/germany-flawed-social-me...

[deleted]

Re: Germany Acts to Tame Facebook, Learning from Its Own History of Hate

#39

Post by cat199 »

joering2 wrote: post #37
dmoy wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depending on the type of hate speech in Germany, you can get thrown in prison for up to 5 years.

Thats true. One of my ex classmates went first time abroad, and upon leaving zoll (german border) he told officer “heil hitler” out of pure excitement and probably too many historical movies watched (is there anything else to watch that is german made?). No amount of explanations was sufficient. He got 3 months behind bars and 10 years ban to visit germany. That was in 2007. I assume now its even worse.

excitement? that's just dumbness.

Nazi whatever aside, these are border officers..

You don't mess with them, period, unless you're into body cavity searches and the like..

Re: Germany Acts to Tame Facebook, Learning from Its Own History of Hate

#40

Post by MereKatMoves »

kodablah wrote: post #11

What even is this article? There is nothing substantive here. Like many other mainstream tech articles these days, this reeks of mass-media narrative control. I just wonder if it's the clicks that drive these or if there are other actors behind the scenes encouraging the deluge of anti-FB, anti-Goog, anti-Twitter, etc articles. Maybe I'm viewing this too broadly, but I get an icky feeling of intentional furor constru…

> the deluge of anti-FB, anti-Goog, anti-Twitter, etc articles. Maybe I'm viewing this too broadly, but I get an icky feeling of intentional furor construction.

Those companies are enabling the criminals. German law defines the users as criminals and it is this pre-internet law that is being upgraded and enforced, because profiting from enabling illegal activity is clearly wrong.

FB employs 1200 people to deal with this... why is that? It isn't their fault that the world has so many fucktards in it, but is their problem when they give a platform to their illegality

furor over the failings of the "city state" that FB are trying to establish. Good

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