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Germany Acts to Tame Facebook, Learning from Its Own History of Hate

nytimes.com

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Re: Germany Acts to Tame Facebook, Learning from Its Own History of Hate

#111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>"I grew up playing Wolfenstein 3D and watching the History channel. Nazi symbols were completely normal and everywhere." You obviously should have paid a lot more attention, then. Can it with the whataboutism, it's not helping you. If you visit a country, you respect its laws and customs. You don't go around breaking them because you disagree with them. Leave it to the residents of that country to change their laws…

I'm sure he didn't know that law. That seems to be lost on everyone in this thread. It would be a complete surprise to someone who didn't see Nazis as a real personal terrible anger-shame-inducing thing and who comes from a country with freedom of speech.

> I'm sure he didn't know that law.

Let me speak it out for you again:

It doesn't matter. Ignorance does not protect against punishment.

Re: Germany Acts to Tame Facebook, Learning from Its Own History of Hate

#112
post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hammer and Sickle gets you into serious trouble in much of East Europe, particularly in Poland and the Czech Republic.

I’ve seen people (fellow foreigners) wearing hammer and sickle on tshirts in czech and it didn’t seem to cause any trouble. I’m sure people quietly thought “what an idiot” but nobody actually did anything. Weirdly a friend of a friend who was a member of the local football ultras threatened to kick the shit out of a someone who was wearing that iconic Che-Guevara-face t-shirt ... but nothing happened (and that’s prob…

In all fairness, you need to be a particular brand of idiot to show communist glorification on your clothing in the country that was subject to the violent break of the liberalization that we now know as Prague Spring. Anyone who has read anything about Czechia knows about that.

I would expect czech police there to be more "nah, above my paygrade" when it comes to foreigners than German customs officers.

Re: Germany Acts to Tame Facebook, Learning from Its Own History of Hate

#113
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You obviously know that it's a crime in Germany. The parent's friend obviously didn't. Are you actually in support of rule of law no matter what, or is it just this law you like? For example, are you OK with China executing Falun Gong members? Are you OK with ISIS killing gay people (it's the law of Islam!)? Are you OK with slavery as long as it's legal? Or are you just angry about Nazis especially out of all the oth…

>"I grew up playing Wolfenstein 3D and watching the History channel. Nazi symbols were completely normal and everywhere." You obviously should have paid a lot more attention, then. Can it with the whataboutism, it's not helping you. If you visit a country, you respect its laws and customs. You don't go around breaking them because you disagree with them. Leave it to the residents of that country to change their laws…

You're culturally oblivious. Stop being so insulting. I wasn't rude to anybody but I'm suddenly facing a barrage of abuse. I get it that Germans have a penchant for imprisoning people because they're insulted. But the rest of us don't have that luxury. Just stop being an asshole to people you talk to.

I wasn't using whataboutism. I was showing an inconsistency in the commenter's general claim. Do you also really believe gays are being assholes if they have sex in Saudi Arabia? That they should show respect to the culture that has a deep shame about homosexuals?

Re: Germany Acts to Tame Facebook, Learning from Its Own History of Hate

#114
post #41
post #35

Germany acts to clamp down on free speach, learning from its own history of clamping down on free speech under both the communists and the nazis. They are even hiring former stasi people to do it. http://www.breitbart.com/london/2015/09/17/german-govt-hires...

The didn't have free speech to begin with. People forget Germany, France and the UK don't have the basic concept of freedom of speech that America does. You could already go to prison for insulting the wrong groups or supporting the wrong political party, and people have.

>People forget Germany, France and the UK don't have the basic concept of freedom of speech that America does

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_10_of_the_European_Con...

Re: Germany Acts to Tame Facebook, Learning from Its Own History of Hate

#115
post #9

I find it interesting that platforms are liable for hosting hate speech, but individual users are not liable for creating it. It's also interesting that Human Rights Watch has come out against the German law: https://www.hrw.org/news/2018/02/14/germany-flawed-social-me...

If someone spray painted a swastika on your house, how would you react? That’s basically what people are doing to the Facebook platform, and Facebook is fine with it. Which is weird, because they are already censoring you considering there is a long range of things you can’t share in their platform, such as pictures of you breastfeeding your baby. I’m not sure why breastfeeding is considered worse than hate speech at…

> If someone spray painted a swastika on your house, how would you react?

Where I live (Görlitzer Park), those kinds of signs are literally everywhere -- only they're the leftwing equivalent, calling for bloody revolution, for the rich to be booted from their homes, racists and xenophobes to be punched, etc. I'm actually pretty relaxed about it -- a bunch of 20 year olds who get their kicks spray painting while drinking copious amounts of booze? Big deal.

And to offer another perspective on the recent emotional concern expressed so histrioniocally by a, politically speaking, suspiciously homogeneous crowd: Last year there was a huge, state financed charity billboard celebrating the life of... Fidel Castro. It was a collab between our Green local govt and the Cuban tourist ministry IIRC. Castro... who was responsible for how many deaths, 50,000? 100K?

By way of comparison, Pinochet had (according to Wikipedia) 10-30K on his account. I guarantee you there were no billboards of him around. Do I need to mention the recent merry festivities surrounding Karl Marx 200th birthday -- ceremony lead by Jean-Claude Juncker? Lest I have my words twisted against: I don't desire either of the these men to be displayed on taxpayer financed billboards!

The point that I'm trying to make is that this kind of legislation, and the so-called journalism and commentary surrounding it, don't fool anyone who's even the slightest bit (like me) conservative. We see right through these tendentiously applied, faux histrionic ("oh pity the poor soul who has endure watching -- and then deleting -- horribly vicious, hate-filled posts") outbursts whose real purpose is totally obvious. Namely to leverage dominance in various domains (journalism, charity, education, civil service) to usurp the electoral beating the left taken in any number of countries over the past two years. A beating meted out by a population who sees through the phony social concern, and sees the manifest and seething hypocrisy, the coziness of those who are insanely rich and the charity, journalistic, and civil service complexes.

In this battle any means to push back against at the barbarians at the gate are deemed appropriate. And so we are treated to the pathetic spectacle of those screeching about the deleterious, democracy damaging impact of fake news happily engaging in its production if it suits their side, the so-called defenders of liberty and free speech engaging in a rampage of censorship, bullying, "calling out", etc. of anyone who has an even slightly different opinion.

Now, don't get me wrong, I understand that those forces have no intention of trying to convince me. That is definitely not the goal, for if it were, the path that's being taken would certainly be recognized as wholly counterproductive. No, the real goal is to set boundaries, to wear out, tire, and demoralize the enemy. In other words, this is a propaganda war, exactly as e.g. Jacques Ellul described it. The very focus on such emotively charged terms as "love" (what we're about) and "hate speech" (what they do) makes this patently obvious.

To finalize, my feeling is that the forces I've described are winning, and I actually think they'll prevail in the battle. The propaganda war won't make any friends, but I believe it will succeed in its purpose, which is to wear out and dissipate the forces currently arrayed against it.

Final note: this is just an opinion. It's a strong one, yes. But I really love being proven wrong, so I'm really happy for the many highly intelligent and well-informed HNers to tear my argument apart. Have fun :)

Re: Germany Acts to Tame Facebook, Learning from Its Own History of Hate

#116
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"And in Germany, you would have gotten jail time (§ 86a StGB), have your car confiscated and likely destroyed, and probably would have lost your driving license because you have demonstrated that you lack the adequate character to safely operate a vehicle. And I would have been ok with that." And no german would see the irony in this...

No, this was the ironic part: "As a German citizen, I trust my authorities to uphold the laws."

We all do - we just watch very carefully when those laws are being written down.

This is something we are learning in the UK as sweeping powers "necessary to implement Brexit" are getting pushed through Parliament. Only so very principled MPs are preventing really sweeping executive powers being granted - they are referred to as Henry VIII laws to give an idea how retrograde we are getting

Re: Germany Acts to Tame Facebook, Learning from Its Own History of Hate

#117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If someone spray painted a swastika on your house, how would you react? That’s basically what people are doing to the Facebook platform, and Facebook is fine with it. Which is weird, because they are already censoring you considering there is a long range of things you can’t share in their platform, such as pictures of you breastfeeding your baby. I’m not sure why breastfeeding is considered worse than hate speech at…

> If someone spray painted a swastika on your house, how would you react? Where I live (Görlitzer Park), those kinds of signs are literally everywhere -- only they're the leftwing equivalent, calling for bloody revolution, for the rich to be booted from their homes, racists and xenophobes to be punched, etc. I'm actually pretty relaxed about it -- a bunch of 20 year olds who get their kicks spray painting while drink…

I view it a lot less like a battle between the establishment and the barbarians at the gate, and much more a struggle to take away the megaphone from the village idiot.

We’ve always had people who called vaccines dangerous against better evidence, but platforms like facebook, allowed these people to construct their own realities, and as a result people are now dying from diseases that have been extinct for more than 50 years.

As I’ve said, there have always been village idiots, but social media marks the first time in human history, that we’ve actually had to take them seriously.

Re: Germany Acts to Tame Facebook, Learning from Its Own History of Hate

#118
Considering Germany's history, maybe they aren't the best example of dealing with "hate".

History has shown that the best antidote to hate is sunlight. Let the hateful spew hate and let people see it. The vast majority of people are going to be turned off by it.

People forget that germany once banned hitler and the nazi party and censored it. Amazingly enough, when you make something taboo, it makes it more attractive to the people.

Also, keep in mind that all the anti-facebook, anti-social media, etc propaganda lately has nothing to do with "hate". It's all about take control over an information medium.

Re: Germany Acts to Tame Facebook, Learning from Its Own History of Hate

#119

What even is this article? There is nothing substantive here. Like many other mainstream tech articles these days, this reeks of mass-media narrative control. I just wonder if it's the clicks that drive these or if there are other actors behind the scenes encouraging the deluge of anti-FB, anti-Goog, anti-Twitter, etc articles. Maybe I'm viewing this too broadly, but I get an icky feeling of intentional furor constru…

> What even is this article?

It's pretty much like every other article from the media in regards to facebook and social media. A propaganda attack to take control over an information medium by the traditional media.

Re: Germany Acts to Tame Facebook, Learning from Its Own History of Hate

#120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If someone spray painted a swastika on your house, how would you react? That’s basically what people are doing to the Facebook platform, and Facebook is fine with it. Which is weird, because they are already censoring you considering there is a long range of things you can’t share in their platform, such as pictures of you breastfeeding your baby. I’m not sure why breastfeeding is considered worse than hate speech at…

> If someone spray painted a swastika on your house, how would you react? Where I live (Görlitzer Park), those kinds of signs are literally everywhere -- only they're the leftwing equivalent, calling for bloody revolution, for the rich to be booted from their homes, racists and xenophobes to be punched, etc. I'm actually pretty relaxed about it -- a bunch of 20 year olds who get their kicks spray painting while drink…

I don't know if I can prove you wrong, but in my opinion your example of Karl Marx's 200th birthday is misjudged. As far as I know he neither killed nor ordered to be killed anyone. He is no more responsible for people (I assume you have Stalin in mind) twisting his thought than is anyone else. To follow that logic to its conclusion you would also need to express outrage at Christmas, or at the depiction of Jesus on the billboards of churches, because of the deaths occasioned by the Crusades.
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