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Germany Acts to Tame Facebook, Learning from Its Own History of Hate

nytimes.com

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Re: Germany Acts to Tame Facebook, Learning from Its Own History of Hate

#81

Post by ahoka »

DocTomoe wrote: post #69
lopmotr wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You really shouldn't blame the victim just because you've been reading more news stories than him. It's the sort of thing I might have done when I was younger. I grew up trusting authorities and them always being reasonable and I would never have imagined Germany was such a bizarrely brutal place. People often joke with the workers they have to interact with. I've done that before. It's human nature. I used to have a…

> You really shouldn't blame the victim Point is, he's not a victim, he's a criminal and has received his well-deserved punishment. > you've been reading more news stories than him. When you go to another country, it is your responsibility to follow their laws. Ignorantia legis non excusat. >I grew up trusting authorities and them always being reasonable and I would never have imagined Germany was such a bizarrely br…

"And in Germany, you would have gotten jail time (§ 86a StGB), have your car confiscated and likely destroyed, and probably would have lost your driving license because you have demonstrated that you lack the adequate character to safely operate a vehicle.

And I would have been ok with that."

And no german would see the irony in this...

Re: Germany Acts to Tame Facebook, Learning from Its Own History of Hate

#82

Post by fleitz »

DocTomoe wrote: post #69
lopmotr wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You really shouldn't blame the victim just because you've been reading more news stories than him. It's the sort of thing I might have done when I was younger. I grew up trusting authorities and them always being reasonable and I would never have imagined Germany was such a bizarrely brutal place. People often joke with the workers they have to interact with. I've done that before. It's human nature. I used to have a…

> You really shouldn't blame the victim Point is, he's not a victim, he's a criminal and has received his well-deserved punishment. > you've been reading more news stories than him. When you go to another country, it is your responsibility to follow their laws. Ignorantia legis non excusat. >I grew up trusting authorities and them always being reasonable and I would never have imagined Germany was such a bizarrely br…

I believe that the US established sanctuary cities precisely so that those who go to another country don’t have to follow its laws

Re: Germany Acts to Tame Facebook, Learning from Its Own History of Hate

#83

Post by woodpanel »

blattimwind wrote: post #26
Eridrus wrote: post #9

I find it interesting that platforms are liable for hosting hate speech, but individual users are not liable for creating it. It's also interesting that Human Rights Watch has come out against the German law: https://www.hrw.org/news/2018/02/14/germany-flawed-social-me...

> I find it interesting that platforms are liable for hosting hate speech, but individual users are not liable for creating it. NetzDG only regulates how platforms that get a lot of complaints about content that is already illegal under existing criminal code have to handle and report those complaints.

That is precisely the problem with NetzDG: That a private company effectively becomes judge, jury and executor.

It has been deemed unconstitutional by many experts - and whether it holds up against those claims will have to be decided in the supreme court.

That Arvato, the company running the content-checking centers, is a subsidiary of Bertelsmann isn't helping either: Criticism of the government that gets deleted on Facebook by a pro-government company like Bertelsmann comes with a certain stench.

As comes the fact that the NYT somehow forgets to mention this affiliation and somehow manages it to intertwine this with the "right cause" of post-war Germany's approach to limit free-speech for Nazism.

Re: Germany Acts to Tame Facebook, Learning from Its Own History of Hate

#84

Post by tannhaeuser »

anonymouz wrote: post #31
Eridrus wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AFAICT the new law largely doesn't effect individuals, but you're right the existing laws do criminalise hate speech, with prosecutions up over a few years ago: https://www.eurozine.com/no-freedom-to-hate-germanys-new-law... Still, the scale of the two issues - prosecutions vs platform censorship basically implies that most of the things being censored do not rise to that level of illegality.

Yes, the new thing is basically that the platforms are taking part in the enforcement. This provides a pragmatic and efficient solution: * The illegal content can be removed quickly, without tying up resources in the prosecution of minor offenders. Prosecution can focus on the worst of them. * The platforms get to play the role of a neutral party and are not themselves being responsible for distributing the illegal c…

Your portrayal of NetzDG as "[allowing] for efficient implementation" is IMHO very naive. NetzDG has been highly controversial in the informed part of the populace (for example, it's frequently discussed https://netzpolitik.org, in German). Among the concerns are that providers preemptively take down content outside the regular juristical process without transparency and appeal. Moreover, the law is criticized for cementing the defacto monopolization on the Web, and has yet to stand before court. It is seen as a publicity stunt to "do something about hate speech and fake news" and has had also the smell of an attempt to suppress opposing views when it was signed just during last year's federal election campaign by Heiko Maas, former minister of justice, now minister of foreign affairs.

Re: Germany Acts to Tame Facebook, Learning from Its Own History of Hate

#85

Post by picsao »

DocTomoe wrote: post #71
Pica_soO wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you have a whole class of people who have every hour of the day to nanny and harass other people - to rile them up- with any means possible, seems like a good cause. Bonus Points if you put a Hammer and Sickle right next to them. Creepy Thought-controll-freaks of all nations united- in outrage. My man.

Hammer and Sickle gets you into serious trouble in much of East Europe, particularly in Poland and the Czech Republic.

Anarchy A gets you in trouble with all those little Neighbornittlers everywhere. I wish there was a name for this egomaniac psychosis that once you synced your opinion with the in-group you have a right to form the Spanish inquisition.

Re: Germany Acts to Tame Facebook, Learning from Its Own History of Hate

#86

Post by KozmoNau7 »

Pica_soO wrote: post #64
lopmotr wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

This- also history thought us that shunned and silenced ideas, get a "cool" bonus with the youth, who just search for a reason to provoke the previous generation. Its unbelievable, that the same methods that where used to "prevent" the spreading of Gangsta-culture, and horribly "failed" (because the music was good) are used to contain extreme-right ideas. As a result a whole generation of youth, will take to the alt-…

You have a very strange view of "the left".

Re: Germany Acts to Tame Facebook, Learning from Its Own History of Hate

#87

Post by KozmoNau7 »

joering2 wrote: post #37
dmoy wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depending on the type of hate speech in Germany, you can get thrown in prison for up to 5 years.

Thats true. One of my ex classmates went first time abroad, and upon leaving zoll (german border) he told officer “heil hitler” out of pure excitement and probably too many historical movies watched (is there anything else to watch that is german made?). No amount of explanations was sufficient. He got 3 months behind bars and 10 years ban to visit germany. That was in 2007. I assume now its even worse.

That is basically the most hurtful and offensive thing you could possibly say to any German in a position of authority.

It is cutting extremely deep into their greatest national shame, one of the worst parts of any nation's legacy and all of human history.

Imagine going up to a Russian border guard and going "hail, comrade Stalin!". It's that bad, or worse.

I hope he learned an extremely valuable lesson.

Re: Germany Acts to Tame Facebook, Learning from Its Own History of Hate

#88

Post by ben_w »

ggg9990 wrote: post #57
labster wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish the United States had that law, instant impeachable offense for our president. Especially the insulting part, he seems to need to insult others in order to breathe.

you do realize that the president is in charge of enforcing laws?

That would mean Presidents cannot be impeached without their consent. Are you sure?

Re: Germany Acts to Tame Facebook, Learning from Its Own History of Hate

#89

Post by eksemplar »

Eridrus wrote: post #9

I find it interesting that platforms are liable for hosting hate speech, but individual users are not liable for creating it. It's also interesting that Human Rights Watch has come out against the German law: https://www.hrw.org/news/2018/02/14/germany-flawed-social-me...

If someone spray painted a swastika on your house, how would you react? That’s basically what people are doing to the Facebook platform, and Facebook is fine with it.

Which is weird, because they are already censoring you considering there is a long range of things you can’t share in their platform, such as pictures of you breastfeeding your baby.

I’m not sure why breastfeeding is considered worse than hate speech at Facebook but apparently it is. Please note that while I mentioned the swastika, I didn’t mean to imply that Facebook is only cool with alt-right nonsense, the truth is that you can share all sorts of radical hatred from any political standpoint and Facebook is completely fine with it.

I get the free speech argument though, but the truth is that you’re always on someone’s platform and most of them wouldn’t be cool with your crazy. I mean, you’d get thrown out of a public park if you started making Facebook styled hate comments at random strangers.

Re: Germany Acts to Tame Facebook, Learning from Its Own History of Hate

#90

Post by KozmoNau7 »

ahoka wrote: post #81
DocTomoe wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You really shouldn't blame the victim Point is, he's not a victim, he's a criminal and has received his well-deserved punishment. > you've been reading more news stories than him. When you go to another country, it is your responsibility to follow their laws. Ignorantia legis non excusat. >I grew up trusting authorities and them always being reasonable and I would never have imagined Germany was such a bizarrely br…

"And in Germany, you would have gotten jail time (§ 86a StGB), have your car confiscated and likely destroyed, and probably would have lost your driving license because you have demonstrated that you lack the adequate character to safely operate a vehicle. And I would have been ok with that." And no german would see the irony in this...

German laws and authorities have very little tolerance for Nazis, for damn good reason.
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