College May Not Be Worth It Anymore • Hacker News Board

Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

#331

Post by replicatorblog » Thu, May 17, 2018, 7:35 PM UTC

blueseaadmin wrote: post #179

GiorgioG wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You need time to ponder, to explore, to be curious. Most of the kids going to college are not mature enough to do any of the above (come on, these are 17 year olds going 30k into debt for their first year alone.) The 'college experience' today is partying / drinking yourself into a stupor and amassing a ton of debt. No, not everyone, but for most that's reality.

I agree. My own daughter will be going into the Air Force in a couple of years. She's not one that would do well in the college environment. She fits in best where she is a part of something bigger than herself where there is guidance and discipline (like most kids). If she goes in at 18 after high school, she can earn a degree in 2.5 years at night in the Air Force. After her first 4 years she can choose to get out,…

I 100% agree with this advice. I think one challenge is that now that the military has essentially become a soldierly caste in American culture, and one that's heavily concentrated in specific geographies, many don't know about what's involved with a career in the armed forces. It's not for everyone, but it would likely be a better decision for some major chunk of the population who'd otherwise flail in a college environment.

Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

#332

Post by Reedx » Thu, May 17, 2018, 7:38 PM UTC

s73v3r_ wrote: post #276

Reedx wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think he's referring to the "Day of Absence" where white people were not supposed to be on campus. A white progressive professor dared go to work that day and they tried to destroy him for it. It's also a big problem that free speech is increasingly under attack at universities. https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/01/opinion/when-the-left-tur...

Free speech is not at all under attack at universities. What's happening is that shitty people are no longer able to say shitty things without being called out on it. That's what they're upset about.

Read about what happened with Bret Weinstein (the aforementioned professor).

Consider why so many comedians (e.g., Jerry Seinfeld) are no longer performing at colleges. They say it's become unbearable. That's a big clue that free speech is not welcome.

Look at how guest lecturers and ideas are getting shut down. University used to be the bastion of free speech and ideas, but that is increasingly under threat. Just watch what happened at this lecture at Queen's University to see an example how bad it's getting: https://youtu.be/MwdYpMS8s28?t=9m44s

Distinguished professors trying to have a well reasoned and peaceful discussion with students. And that wasn't just disrupted, the doors were barricaded and people were pounding on the windows (breaking at least one) throughout the remainder of the event. Outside it was even yelled "Lock em in and burn it down". Seriously, watch the whole thing (followed by footage of what happened outside) and I think you'll be taken aback.

These are not cases of shitty things being called out, it goes way beyond that.

Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

#333

Post by replicatorblog » Thu, May 17, 2018, 7:39 PM UTC

Frondo wrote: post #107

mkirklions wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People hate when I talk about working fulltime in the factory on the midnight shift and going to school fulltime. I didnt get 'the college experience'. But I didnt have any college debt, I became a hardened adult that didnt cry when plant people got pissed. I dont complain. If something needs to get done, I do it. Graduated in 3 years with my chem engineering degree at age 21. People will always complain about someth…

Why would that experience be aspirational? Why should that be the way we want to structure society? Especially when other western nations show us that university can be free and people can have a rich college experience without that kind of death march.

Other Western nations also don't allow everyone to go to college and aggressively track students into vocational programs at an early age. Not saying that's bad, per se, but implementing that approach in the US would create new and different uncomfortable trade-offs.

Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

#334

Post by dagw » Thu, May 17, 2018, 7:39 PM UTC

tejaswiy wrote: post #96

bluGill wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If somebody is passionate about art history, then they should get a degree in art history regardless of job prospects. You are limiting their ability to get the education they want. Now I will agree that somebody getting an art history type degree shouldn't be taking loans to get it, they should be paying for it out of their pocket. However we should not limit somebody from pursuing their interests just because their…

I think the argument is to not prevent people from getting art history degrees - just to make all art history courses in the US artificially limit the number of students they take in to match the actual demand. So if someone's super passionate about art history and is also able to meet the (presumably) more stringent entry criteria, they will still be able to get that degree.

just to make all art history courses in the US artificially limit the number of students they take in to match the actual demand.

Why? Surely part of the 'charm' of University is to get chance to study thing you know nothing about just to see if that happens to be your thing, plus studying things just because you enjoy it.

Sure we probably shouldn't encourage too many people to get art history degrees, but why not let people take some art history courses just because they find the topic fascinating?

Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

#335

Post by refurb » Thu, May 17, 2018, 7:44 PM UTC

dilap wrote: post #74

mkirklions wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People hate when I talk about working fulltime in the factory on the midnight shift and going to school fulltime. I didnt get 'the college experience'. But I didnt have any college debt, I became a hardened adult that didnt cry when plant people got pissed. I dont complain. If something needs to get done, I do it. Graduated in 3 years with my chem engineering degree at age 21. People will always complain about someth…

Not saying it's true for you, but everyone I knew at college that was working full-time was in my opinion getting far less out of college than they would have. You need time to ponder, to explore, to be curious. Having to grind insane hours just to get in the game might be workable for the very dedicated and tough, but it's certainly not an optimal experience, and something we should strive to make not necessary.

You need time to ponder, to explore, to be curious.

Ok, but you should do that on your own dime, not someone else's. And when you end up with student debt, you shouldn't complain because you go to "ponder, explore and be curious".

Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

#336

Post by jrumbut » Thu, May 17, 2018, 7:44 PM UTC

scoggs wrote: post #298

H1Supreme wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a 1999 graduate, I can verify the "College is the only way to succeed" sentiment from that time. Most of my class had applied for and been accepted well before we graduated. Sadly, many of them acquired lots of debt, and not much else. I advise any young people I get to talk with about post high school education to not jump head first into a degree program. Life won't pass you by if you take a year or two to formu…

>I advise any young people I get to talk with about post high school education to not jump head first into a degree program. Life won't pass you by if you take a year or two to formulate a plan. I applaud you for this. There's often so much pressure from every single direction around a young adult to attend college including internal pressure. After having been the first from my immediate family and older to graduate…

Reading your post gave me a greater empathy for the frustrations that our education system inflicts by not getting into specifics about how to develop a realistic structure and plan for life that is flexible but has an age appropriate level of detail.

Just the exercise would be useful, but even more so some feedback. But then that raises the question, who is equipped to give that feedback? Should an educator tell someone else's kid that maybe they need a backup plan in case the astronaut thing doesn't pan out?

When I was young my father stuck me in front of a publication from the bureau of labor statistics that gave the long term outlook for every occupation they track. It was really great advice that every kid should see (they also ought to make a more kid friendly version, it can be very dry). The big picture stuff was pretty spot on, and it lets you know some hard truths like some jobs will require living in a major city, food service has plenty of openings available but low pay, that kind of thing. It helps you get realistic, even for dream-type jobs like actor or astronaut.

Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

#337

Post by vubuntu » Thu, May 17, 2018, 7:44 PM UTC

shaftway wrote: post #171

aarongough wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't have a degree and honestly have never had any issues with recruiters or interviews for intermediate/senior 'software engineering' positions. I never represent myself as having a degree, but I don't go out of my way to point out my lack of degree either. Never once in an interview have I been asked about my education. One nice thing about software development positions is the interview process tends to be meri…

I don't have a degree and it almost never fails to come up. Ultimately I flunked out (for a variety of reasons). I've done a lot of A/B(/C/D/E) testing with my resume: - Don't include education - I'm asked about it. Every. Single. Time. - Include the years I attended college - Asked why I didn't finish. Every. Single. Time. - Include college in a misleading way - I did a summer extension program for 2 years while in…

>Ultimately I think there are a lot of industries that a degree requirement is a good thing (I really want my doctor to actually have an MD), a lot of industries where certification is sufficient .

Why only Doctors? Because human lives are involved? I assume by the same logic, Civil Engineers also need to have a degree (they build bridges and other life critical infrastructure)

There may be thousands of software products that are also life critical. Not just the obvious ones like some medical hardware control program/firmware, Air traffic control programs, Flight onboard software Self-driving car auto-pilot software etc. So I assume those would require a qualified software engineer with a degree.

But there may even be others that may not be so obvious immediately.

I have a degree and not been on the other side (not having a degree) and so cannot identify with any injustice that is perceived by folks on other side. I can certainly see somewhat equivalent when it comes to bachelors degree vs Masters/PHD as I don't have those. So I am not sure where the lines should be drawn to make it fair to everyone.

Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

#338

Post by jrumbut » Thu, May 17, 2018, 7:48 PM UTC

BlackDeath3 wrote: post #302

s73v3r_ wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But, here's the thing: They weren't wrong. The sheer number of people who have had their resumes ignored simply because they don't have a degree of some sort attests to that.

>> ...they even went so far as to say it didn’t even matter what you studied!... > ...They weren't wrong. The sheer number of people who have had their resumes ignored simply because they don't have a degree of some sort attests to that. This doesn't imply that having any degree would have gotten their resumes looked at, or secured them an interview.

Looking over other people's shoulders while they job search I've seen plenty of openings that require a bachelor's but don't require it be in any particular field.

These may or may not be the best jobs but it's not an uncommon requirement and they are typically better in some dimension than openings that require a HS diploma only (at least within the same organization).

Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

#339

Post by e_tm_ » Thu, May 17, 2018, 7:48 PM UTC

always_good wrote: post #156

e_tm_ wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that 'education' is critically important. But it is important to clarify: education in what is important. I think there is massive difficulty in forming any sort of consensus approach to define a proper baseline of 'education' that works for everyone. Our school systems are frankly not designed for it, and it seems a utopian ideal that they may be 'corrected' to do so. Considering the diversity of motivators…

I generally disagree with your clarification. University was mostly a core of classes that everybody needed to take, free electives that let me take whichever classes I wanted, and then degree courses which were a subset of my classes. We over-fixate on the major in these discussions because we look at the crazy American education prices and then think in $/major. But otherwise I'd say university does a decent job of…

I see where you are coming from. Perhaps my original wording didn't do justice to my thought process.

I agree with your take about STEM majors being pushed due to both ROI potential and/or market demand for skills. I also agree that this is an unhealthy approach to education. However, I don't see this changing. I see it as the fundamental motivator of education for many people. Likely, the people to which I am referring are not readers of this site, who are of the highest skills in their respective fields (most likely technical).

I am interested in your opinion that "university does a decent job of making people credentialize in generally important concepts" but then following with your personal interest (later realized) in an education based on (and in) philosophy.

I think this actually reinforces my point, because the motivator is the credential, or some creditable skillset. This is the economic utility motivator I was referring to, rather than a more abstract education in philosophy or other arts. The skills gained from these more abstract educations are not as highly valued by their economic potential, however they could actually be more beneficial to both the person and society as a whole.

Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

#340

Post by s73v3r_ » Thu, May 17, 2018, 7:50 PM UTC

Reedx wrote: post #332

s73v3r_ wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Free speech is not at all under attack at universities. What's happening is that shitty people are no longer able to say shitty things without being called out on it. That's what they're upset about.

Read about what happened with Bret Weinstein (the aforementioned professor). Consider why so many comedians (e.g., Jerry Seinfeld) are no longer performing at colleges. They say it's become unbearable. That's a big clue that free speech is not welcome. Look at how guest lecturers and ideas are getting shut down. University used to be the bastion of free speech and ideas, but that is increasingly under threat. Just wa…

Again, I completely disagree. I see someone who is being called out for shitty things they're saying. I'm not seeing free speech shut down at all; on the contrary, I see a lot of other people using their free speech to express their disagreement.

And the person in the video, Jordan Peterson, is someone who expresses views that basically say that a lot of people don't deserve to have freedom. He claims that women should not be able to leave abusive marriages. He claims that gay marriage should not be legal at all. He's used a lot of pseudoscience to make it appear as if he's being rational, when really all he's doing is expressing disdain and scorn for lots of marginalized groups. And I can't be upset with those groups for finally getting tired of him disparaging them, and telling him to shove it.