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'Google go home': the Berlin neighbourhood fighting off a tech giant

theguardian.com

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Re: 'Google go home': the Berlin neighbourhood fighting off a tech giant

#121

Post by xiconfjs »

fileeditview wrote: post #113
saintPirelli wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Better schools for your kids, safer cities, better public transport, more and better maintained parks, better local produce. There are a lot of potential reasons for a decision like that.

It depends on where you are coming from I guess. I never really thought about people leaving the US. More like an intra-European competition for talent. My point was however more targeted on the "go back home" guys. I (German) know several guys from Romania, Spain .. who don't plan to stay in Germany forever and just want to work here for a few years, earn good money (well compared to their country) and then return h…

aren't these the usual plans of guest workers who never go back, because of the same reasons they left their home country?

Re: 'Google go home': the Berlin neighbourhood fighting off a tech giant

#122

Post by jk2323 »

mhomde wrote: post #9

I think Berlins "Poor but happy" times are fast coming to an end. Rents have been rising quickly the last few years and tech companies and startups becoming more prevalent. Heck, Neukölln went from being a cheap alternative to being as trendy and expensive as Kreuzberg. Berlin kinda, from what I understand, enjoyed it's special culture much because it wasn't an industrial city and lacked an large international airpor…

"Mark my words, Berlin will be Europe's Silicon Valley within a few years."

Doubt it. Lack of professional attitude. Disastrous politicians. 3rd tier universities. Lack of capital. Large underclass, big welfare spending.

It is very hard to set up a "silicon valley". The silicon valley had and has some very unique points, including military origins, if I remember right. Germany still has a strong and broad industry, which is lacking in most Eastern and Western European Economies. This is an advantage (try to do a non-software technology start-up in a country that does not have the suppliers and partners, then you know). In the end it is extremely unlikely that EUrope will achieve something similar than the Silicon valley.

Yes, Berlin once was a scientific, cultural, industrial and technological powerhouse. These times won't come back.

The more interesting question would be, can China manage to create a new silicon valley? I have my doubts.

Re: 'Google go home': the Berlin neighbourhood fighting off a tech giant

#123

Post by jk2323 »

jk2323 wrote: post #117
saintPirelli wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No way. Europe's Silicon Valley will establish in Eastern Europe, where living is cheaper and governments are more willing to ease up on regulations to accomodate the flexible start-up employer-employee relationships. Warsaw, Sophia, Tallinn, those are the spots to keep an eye out for.

"Warsaw, Sophia, Tallinn" Doubt that any East European city will be close to a "European Silicon Valley" because of many reasons. Language. Xenophobia. Capital. Location. Culture. Bucharest comes to mind but because of other reasons. Quite big and Romania has a higher GDP growth than China. But still. no.

Before you downvote, give a reason. All these are interesting places. I likely prefer to live in Budapest or somewhere before I live in Berlin (again). Yet, this does not make these places a silicon valley contender.

Lisbon is a great place. I speak the language. Real Estate is already expensive as f.. if you want something decent. Great place to live or retire. But a new Silicon Valley? No.

Re: 'Google go home': the Berlin neighbourhood fighting off a tech giant

#125

Post by l5870uoo9y »

dvfjsdhgfv wrote: post #26

I always find it amusing that American companies, be it Amazon or Google, are surprised that people don't want them here. They seem to really believe people love them, whereas in fact people use them because they have to, and put up with problems caused by them also because they have to.

They are also moving right into the most radical left-wing area of Berlin, perhaps Germany, SO 36. When the protest there will die out, there won't be any other, and this seemingly unstoppable gentrification will just continue as elsewhere and the lower class will be quietly pushed further out to make way for the global tech class.

Perhaps that is what it is on a philosophical level, a new class is being born and asserts itself and creates its own living space and gentrification is the tool that makes this happened (global tech companies are just another "innocent" manifestation of this). It segregates them and us and just like all former classes also preferred to live segregated and monocultural.

Re: 'Google go home': the Berlin neighbourhood fighting off a tech giant

#126

Post by [deleted] »

jk2323 wrote: post #122
mhomde wrote: post #9

I think Berlins "Poor but happy" times are fast coming to an end. Rents have been rising quickly the last few years and tech companies and startups becoming more prevalent. Heck, Neukölln went from being a cheap alternative to being as trendy and expensive as Kreuzberg. Berlin kinda, from what I understand, enjoyed it's special culture much because it wasn't an industrial city and lacked an large international airpor…

"Mark my words, Berlin will be Europe's Silicon Valley within a few years." Doubt it. Lack of professional attitude. Disastrous politicians. 3rd tier universities. Lack of capital. Large underclass, big welfare spending. It is very hard to set up a "silicon valley". The silicon valley had and has some very unique points, including military origins, if I remember right. Germany still has a strong and broad industry, w…

[deleted]

Re: 'Google go home': the Berlin neighbourhood fighting off a tech giant

#127

Post by ido »

collyw wrote: post #83
ido wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

45% in 6 years is 6.21% compound per year, which is not unusually high for that time scale for an attractive large city.

Are the wages rising as fast? I would doubt it.

Probably not but that's again a global problem not a Berlin problem. My point was only that Berlin is not specifically harshly affected by these global trends, it's that way (or worse) in pretty much every attractive major city.

Re: 'Google go home': the Berlin neighbourhood fighting off a tech giant

#128

Post by ido »

scandox wrote: post #78
aestetix wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is overblown. The Berlin "housing crisis" is only happening in a few trendy neighborhoods-- Neuköln, Kreuzberg, F-schein, etc. There is a rather ill-informed effort to attempt to compare it to, for example, what is happening in the Bay Area, which is absurd. In the Bay Area, any place to live within walking distance of public transit is so expensive that only tech workers can afford it, extending far bey…

Even 5 years ago when I spent 3 months in Berlin the idea of calling Neuköln trendy would have seemed pretty nuts. So I think that suggests something radical is happening.

I think your memory may be faulty or you weren't that well integrated into the local "scene". 5 years ago was 2013, I was already living in Berlin back then and Neuköln was already billed as "the next Kreuzberg". 10 years ago...you may have had a point.

But also remember that then and now we're only talking about very specific areas of Neuköln which are super hip, it's actually a huge district and most of it is still "not cool". The bits close to Tempelhofer Feld and Kreuzberg have been gentrifying for many years.

Re: 'Google go home': the Berlin neighbourhood fighting off a tech giant

#129

Post by briandear »

arximboldi wrote: post #33
valarauca1 wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Salaries need to grow faster Berlin software engineer salaries are seriously worse then any where in america. I’ve seen desktop IT support in the US MidWest pay more than developers in Berlin. Hard to convince me to move internationally and write code. I can just move home, write zero code, and spend all day telling people to try, “turning it off and on again”. Cashing identical value checks.

While I would be happy to have higher salaries here, they are not really comparable to the US. Here you have a social system (free education, public health insurance) and work way less (hardly 8 hours a day, 25-30 days vacation as normal, etc.). For European standards salaries here are actually rather decent. With the current rent situation, I hope though they rise to the standards of the more affluent German south.

Let’s say you can make €45k in Berlin. Let’s say you can make €90k in the US.

“Free” education costs roughly €45k per year. In the US, 2-3 weeks of vacation is normal (for tech jobs,) so let’s say in Germany, you get an additional week. Let’s now say that US workers work an extra 200 hours per year.

So “free” education plus an additional week off plus 200 annual hours of less work. Costing €45k per year.

In a work week, let’s say in Germany it’s 38 hours. So that week of extra vacation, plus the 200 extra annual hours, we have 238 extra hours of work. Not counting “free” university that means that extra time off costs you €189 per hour. Let’s say that a typical US state university costs €60k for 4 years. That represents about 315 hours of work (at the €189 per hour rate.) Which means that in just 2 years or less, the salary differential would pay for your university education. After that expense, then, for the rest of your career, you are essentially paying €189 per hour of extra time you get as a bonus for working in Germany.

Taxes are excluded from this calculation, but while they are higher in Germany, you get more “stuff,” so it balances out on the tax side reasonably well. However, something that is relevant is that the cost of consumer goods is higher in Germany, so your disposable income is going to be less than the US.

I am not saying Germany is “bad” — a great place to live, but in pure economic terms, you are definitely worse off by comparison to a similar job in the US.

Re: 'Google go home': the Berlin neighbourhood fighting off a tech giant

#130

Post by V-2 »

jk2323 wrote: post #123
jk2323 wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Warsaw, Sophia, Tallinn" Doubt that any East European city will be close to a "European Silicon Valley" because of many reasons. Language. Xenophobia. Capital. Location. Culture. Bucharest comes to mind but because of other reasons. Quite big and Romania has a higher GDP growth than China. But still. no.

Before you downvote, give a reason. All these are interesting places. I likely prefer to live in Budapest or somewhere before I live in Berlin (again). Yet, this does not make these places a silicon valley contender. Lisbon is a great place. I speak the language. Real Estate is already expensive as f.. if you want something decent. Great place to live or retire. But a new Silicon Valley? No.

Your point about "language" isn't convincing to me, as everyone speaks English in the IT sector anyway. And what sort of "xenophobia" are you referring to?
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