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Finland is scrapping plans to extend its basic income project

businessinsider.com

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Re: Finland is scrapping plans to extend its basic income project

#161

Post by bryanlarsen »

dandare wrote: post #160
bryanlarsen wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Let's agree that these are not the rich people we want to tax." I definitely do not agree. BI is only viable if the average taxpayer sees no or very little net benefit from BI. So the average taxpayer would pay £15k extra in taxes if they receive £15k in BI. And £42k is above average (but not a lot, the medium income is £21k, but only a little more than half of adults are taxpayers)

The average taxpayer with income between £20k and £30k pays on average £2630 tax, some 10.7%. If you hand him over £15k and them tax him on average additional £15k then his tax rate must be around 44%. This will be extremely demotivational. A hard-working person will have barely more than absolute freeloader and if he tries to work extra hard you will take half of his reward.

No, he will have almost twice as much money as the freeloader.

More importantly, if both him & the freeloader are spending £15k on rent & food, then the freeloader has £0k of disposable income and the worker has infinitely more disposable income.

Another way of looking at it is that average taxpayer with UBI has an income of between £35k and £45k and has a marginal rate not much different from what people making £45k are paying right now. People making £45k aren't currently significantly demotivated by taxes, are they?

Re: Finland is scrapping plans to extend its basic income project

#162

Post by dwild »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #112
yAnonymous wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Pensions >The currency doesn't inflate uncontrollably Seeing the costs for pension homes in Germany, I disagree. There is a ton of fraud and abuse (in the billions) and the prices are outrageous. Old people are an easy target and we have a general problem with crime, so that no doubt contributes to it, but overall the example seems to be a bad one if you're in favor of UBI.

Perhaps because they are 'pension homes', which can be a closed market and an easy target. A UBI is universal. You can't tell those dollars from any other dollars being spent. Prices, in fact, should drop with more demand and thus flexible supply adapting. Cheaper by the volume.

> Prices, in fact, should drop with more demand and thus flexible supply adapting. Cheaper by the volume.

Housing isn't a flexible supply and isn't much cheaper by the volume (if anything, it can become more expensive because of the space).

Personally that's my biggest issue with UBI. If it's not taken together with incentive to build suburbs/other cities that will make people want to go further away... most of it will go toward rent because you will all compete for a better location (I don't know for you but I waste 2 hours a day to go to works, I could lower that to 30 minutes a day for less than 1000$ a month, that's for sure).

We already see this effect in the cities that attracted startups. They got higher wages (which can be seen as "basic income" essentially because there was already a similar job done for less money close to there), which made housing price to go much higher.

Re: Finland is scrapping plans to extend its basic income project

#163

Post by dwild »

spacehome wrote: post #44
benjohnson wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't want it - I have a real knack of stretching money and I could very well see myself becoming lazy if given a dependable source of unearned income.

Look no further than the Financial Independence movement for more evidence than you'd ever need. It's made up of people who basically are creating their own personal basic income, and while some do work to pass the time, a goodly percentage do no economically meaningful work again.

Except that was the goal of the one that did this to themselves and they made it not to "survive" but to live the life they want.

UBI should be fixed to a survivable life style. You get the minimum, no luxury. I'm pretty sure that movement fix their income to a bit higher than that, to an amount that at least allow them a bit of luxury (restaurant is one).

It was also their goal, not working of working to pass the time.

As a counter point, look at anyone that make more than 100 000$ a year. They have much more than needed, yet can still works insane hours. Is it that they ALWAYS NEED more money or simply that's what they want to do and having more money is an extension to it? Workaholic exist...

Re: Finland is scrapping plans to extend its basic income project

#164

Post by dandare »

bryanlarsen wrote: post #161
dandare wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The average taxpayer with income between £20k and £30k pays on average £2630 tax, some 10.7%. If you hand him over £15k and them tax him on average additional £15k then his tax rate must be around 44%. This will be extremely demotivational. A hard-working person will have barely more than absolute freeloader and if he tries to work extra hard you will take half of his reward.

No, he will have almost twice as much money as the freeloader. More importantly, if both him & the freeloader are spending £15k on rent & food, then the freeloader has £0k of disposable income and the worker has infinitely more disposable income. Another way of looking at it is that average taxpayer with UBI has an income of between £35k and £45k and has a marginal rate not much different from what people making £45k…

You are contradicting yourself.

"the average taxpayer would pay £15k extra in taxes if they receive £15k in BI"

vs

"Another way of looking at it is that average taxpayer with UBI has an income of between £35k and £45k".

Today a taxpayer with median income £21k takes home £19k net. After your reform, he will take home the same £19k net (remember: pay £15k extra in taxes if they receive £15k in BI). Except hew will now be way below the median and making only £4k more than the now ubiquitous dude Lebowski type.

Re: Finland is scrapping plans to extend its basic income project

#165

Post by civilitty »

jandrese wrote: post #128
yardie wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure what a good percentage is but I know the majority of the population is self-motivated. What that motivation is can very greatly and is affected by resources. I've sat on my ass plenty of times and watched TV simply because I didn't have the money to go anywhere. Will there people who abuse that goodwill? There is in almost every system. Just like you can't design the perfect lock to keep all thieves out…

Maybe, but I've done charity work in south West Virginia and welfare depression is a serious issue in former coal country. You want to see the people do just anything but they've lost all motivation. It's not everybody, but it's a big enough percentage of the population to cause a lot of problems.

Is there any avenue for investment and personal growth for the majority people in coal country, let alone those on long term welfare? I ask because a wealthy friend sends a substantial amount of money home to relatives in WV ($2k per person or so) and even though they save quite a bit, there is nothing for them to do with that money other than move out to a more economically active area if they want to improve their lives. Starting a business or getting an education is pointless because there's no market for anything but the bare necessities. They even had trouble finding good local caterers, photographers, and a wedding planner even though they had saved up enough money to cover a decent wedding in an urban city.

Basic income at least has the ability to thrust everyone in a region into the market by giving them disposable income so that there is actual activity that can provide opportunities.

Re: Finland is scrapping plans to extend its basic income project

#166

Post by oxide »

jandrese wrote: post #128
yardie wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure what a good percentage is but I know the majority of the population is self-motivated. What that motivation is can very greatly and is affected by resources. I've sat on my ass plenty of times and watched TV simply because I didn't have the money to go anywhere. Will there people who abuse that goodwill? There is in almost every system. Just like you can't design the perfect lock to keep all thieves out…

Maybe, but I've done charity work in south West Virginia and welfare depression is a serious issue in former coal country. You want to see the people do just anything but they've lost all motivation. It's not everybody, but it's a big enough percentage of the population to cause a lot of problems.

State level welfare is not UBI.

For almost every state youll get 200 dollars in EBT/person. These are nontranferable, you must only buy unprepared food, etc. Yes, even now people abuse this. You cannot make a perfect lock.

If you have a kid you also get a bit of cash aid (less than 200 dollars.)

Try living on 400 bucks for the next month or 12 and see how depressed it will make you.

Re: Finland is scrapping plans to extend its basic income project

#167

Post by Regardsyjc »

0xbadcafebee wrote: post #47

Things you need to live: food, dwelling, energy, transportation, healthcare. (And necessary for a thriving economy/government: trade skills, education, military) Self-sustaining would be very plausible on extremely modest amounts of income if the government subsidized the dwelling, energy, transportation, and healthcare. It may be unnecessary for large portions of a nation to work if people produced their own goods a…

If you're interested in this issue, you might like the book Inventing the Future: Postcapitalism and a World Without Work. They talk about the rise and hegemony of neoliberalism- how it makes it seem capitalism is and always was the way societies should work. They also mention the proletariat. I'm reading the book now and don't have a good grasp on all its complex ideas but one big idea was that capitalism works by displacing peasants. At least peasants were self-sustainable. But in countries that are industrializing, you start taking away the land, and the means to be self-sustainable.

Re: Finland is scrapping plans to extend its basic income project

#168

Post by bryanlarsen »

dandare wrote: post #164
bryanlarsen wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, he will have almost twice as much money as the freeloader. More importantly, if both him & the freeloader are spending £15k on rent & food, then the freeloader has £0k of disposable income and the worker has infinitely more disposable income. Another way of looking at it is that average taxpayer with UBI has an income of between £35k and £45k and has a marginal rate not much different from what people making £45k…

You are contradicting yourself. "the average taxpayer would pay £15k extra in taxes if they receive £15k in BI" vs "Another way of looking at it is that average taxpayer with UBI has an income of between £35k and £45k". Today a taxpayer with median income £21k takes home £19k net. After your reform, he will take home the same £19k net (remember: pay £15k extra in taxes if they receive £15k in BI). Except hew will now…

The average taxpayer is well above £21k -- that's the median income, which includes the 40% not paying taxes and of course median is well below average due to tail effects.

Re: Finland is scrapping plans to extend its basic income project

#169

Post by smokeyj »

magduf wrote: post #132
smokeyj wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and now you have more money than you get with the UBI alone. And so does everyone else. Prices will reflect that. > Is this really such a hard concept for you? Yes, what's so hard about supply and demand? Housing costs too much? Increase supply. Healthcare costs too much? Increase supply. Education costs too much? Increase supply. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills here. It's all really simple. If you want the pric…

Ok, and WTF do you do for people who can't work, or aren't in a position to get a job, or simply cannot afford things at the prices they're at? You're never going to have free housing and food. That's why we have welfare systems, and that's what UBI aims to improve. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills here. It's all really simple. Welfare exists for a reason, even if people like you refuse to believe this.

> Ok, and WTF do you do for people who can't work, or aren't in a position to get a job

Make jobs that increase supply, and give some of that supply to those who can't work. China is building new cities from scratch, why not do that given the scope of UBI as an initiative?

Re: Finland is scrapping plans to extend its basic income project

#170

Post by Applejinx »

opportune wrote: post #77
prostoalex wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the people don't all become listless and stop contributing Well, in the US two groups that do get state distributions - residents of Alaska and those on Native American reservations - do have disproportionate rates of substance abuse (mainly alcohol). As far as seniors who get pensions, what is your definition of "contributing"? In many cases they are eligible for those pensions only once they declare themselves re…

There are also plenty of retirees and rich people that get money for not working. I think a good cohort to look at would be trust fund recipients, specifically those who receive between $10-50k/year from their trust. Oftentimes these trusts are first available in young adulthood, so they are a good proxy for UBI. Of course the major confounding variable would be that these recipients are likely to be wealthier, and t…

This. Go ahead and make whatever arguments you like about how people should not get money for not working, just as long as you're prepared also to apply that to the workings of compound interest in savings accounts :)

There should be no income whatsoever merely from already having money. Go get a job :)

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