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Finland is scrapping plans to extend its basic income project

businessinsider.com

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Re: Finland is scrapping plans to extend its basic income project

#111

Post by smokeyj »

magduf wrote: post #88
smokeyj wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do UBI supporters intentionally not understand supply and demand? Who wants to work at a restaurant if they don’t have to? Who will lay bricks and take out the trash if they don’t have to? The idea that UBi can help people find fulfilling work leads to the question of who does the unfulfilling work.

Do UBI haters intentionally not understand wanting to have a better life? People will work at a restaurant if they don't have to so they can afford a place without crappy roommates, or in a better part of town. It's really that simple. You work, even at a crappy job, and now you have more money than you get with the UBI alone. Is this really such a hard concept for you?

> and now you have more money than you get with the UBI alone.

And so does everyone else. Prices will reflect that.

> Is this really such a hard concept for you?

Yes, what's so hard about supply and demand? Housing costs too much? Increase supply. Healthcare costs too much? Increase supply. Education costs too much? Increase supply.

I feel like I'm taking crazy pills here. It's all really simple. If you want the price to go down increase supply. I'm not saying it's easy - but nothing else will work. Redistributing costs more energy than is gained. If you want to help those in need, increase supply.

Re: Finland is scrapping plans to extend its basic income project

#112

Post by JoeAltmaier »

yAnonymous wrote: post #85
JoeAltmaier wrote: post #12

These experiments confuse me. Haven't we already seen the result of UBI? Pensions, states that issue money (from state oil income etc), allowances, annuities? The world doesn't come to an end; the people don't all become listless and stop contributing. The currency doesn't inflate uncontrollably; prices don't change at all. The cost of living is unchanged (because economics doesn't work that way). All the FUD produce…

>Pensions >The currency doesn't inflate uncontrollably Seeing the costs for pension homes in Germany, I disagree. There is a ton of fraud and abuse (in the billions) and the prices are outrageous. Old people are an easy target and we have a general problem with crime, so that no doubt contributes to it, but overall the example seems to be a bad one if you're in favor of UBI.

Perhaps because they are 'pension homes', which can be a closed market and an easy target.

A UBI is universal. You can't tell those dollars from any other dollars being spent. Prices, in fact, should drop with more demand and thus flexible supply adapting. Cheaper by the volume.

Re: Finland is scrapping plans to extend its basic income project

#113

Post by notahacker »

bryanlarsen wrote: post #43
dandare wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you for proving my point. And now look at the numbers in my diagram, the administrative costs are negligible compared to the cost of giving money to those who don't need it.

You're missing a section on the bottom of your chart. Who will pay for UBI? -- income tax. Raise the per capita income rate an average of £12,000, (£15,000 pounds minus the ~3,000 in savings you calculated earlier). No net impact on the average taxpayer, little impact on the rich and massive impact on the poor.

25% of the working age population is economically inactive (with more being below the income tax floor) most of whom do not receive benefits (they're living off savings or others) even before you actively incentivise people not to look for work. It's going to cost a lot more than £12k per taxpayer, and with median UK household income being only £27k the taper for the working poor is going to be steep, and the middle classes seeing a net tax increase is going to include an awful lot of people struggling to pay off their mortgages.

And the thing is, many people who are actively looking for work or disabled already receive more than the UBI in other benefits being cut to fund this. The true beneficiaries? Upper middle class people who've paid off their mortgage, built up savings and wish to retire a decade or two earlier and traditional housewives. The losers? The working young and single people.

Re: Finland is scrapping plans to extend its basic income project

#114

Post by icebraining »

matte_black wrote: post #102
icebraining wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where is that home? In the US, would it be in SF, CA or Alamo, GA? What kind of vehicle? I don't have a license, does that mean I only get a bicycle instead of a car? What about gas? What's "free utilities" - how much can I consume? Can I trade the clothes for something else if I don't need as many? If so, who decides for what and how much I can trade them for? I'm not an expert, but I think the results where this ha…

> Where is that home? In the US, would it be in SF, CA or Alamo, GA? A dense, tall building in SF could hold homes for a lot of residents at once. >I don't have a license, does that mean I only get a bicycle instead of a car? It means you get a car when you learn to drive, or else just take a bus. > What about gas? Electric vehicle > What's "free utilities" - how much can I consume? A set amount per month based on re…

A dense, tall building in SF could hold homes for a lot of residents at once.

That's not the point. An apartment in a dense, tall building in SF will still cost more than an apartment in a dense, tall building almost anywhere else. Who gets to live in SF if too many people want to?

It means you get a car when you learn to drive, or else just take a bus.

So your UBI discriminates against people who can't drive, who are oftentimes the people most in need. Also, it promotes massive waste, since I'll ask for a car even if I don't need one - why not, if I don't gain anything by giving it up?

A set amount per month based on reasonable usage estimates.

Right, but "reasonable" will depend on geography (for heat/cooling), needs, etc, no? How many jobs will be required to calculate that for the 3000+ counties in the US?

You can do whatever you want with your stuff. Between you and the person you trade with.

So you're producing and distributing a bunch of clothes, cars, etc, which will then be sold to companies (for low prices, obviously, since everyone has them) which will export them to other countries. Nice corporate subsidy. The WTO might have something to say about your unfair competition practices.

Re: Finland is scrapping plans to extend its basic income project

#115

Post by aeorgnoieang »

matte_black wrote: post #103
yorwba wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More like one package per person. Of course that's still trivial to provide, as you say. You just give everyone a fixed set of points they can allocate to the options available according to their needs. I propose to call those points "money".

Even if you want a point system it becomes a separated currency from actual money.

But money is fungible, even among different currencies; think exchange rates.

Re: Finland is scrapping plans to extend its basic income project

#116

Post by aeorgnoieang »

matte_black wrote: post #99
tachudda wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Often times when I've seen this discussed, the reasoning behind straight cash vs just necessities, it often has to do with overhead. If you just give people money, its easier to administer, everyone in the program gets the same cash, theres no inventory to administer, theres nothing to check. The other thing often discussed in the same manner is help that has certain "morality" clauses, such as welfare or help, but o…

To me this is just throwing money at a poverty problem and hoping it will fix itself. It will never work, UBI will inevitably raise prices of things so people will need more basic income to get what they want. That means having to either give out more UBI or have the program become irrelevant because it doesn’t keep up with standards of living. A free house though is a free house. It does not become any less of a hou…

> A free house though is a free house. It does not become any less of a houses just because more people have houses.

What about houses that are damaged or destroyed? Will your "trivial" system repair or replace them? What if the occupant is responsible for the damage or destruction? What if this is the second or third such free home they've destroyed?

And how will people move? Can they move? Can people trade homes? Can they still buy and sell them? If a person sells their home will your system give them another one for free?

Re: Finland is scrapping plans to extend its basic income project

#117

Post by SirLJ »

This is the inconvenient truth: UBI is a horrible idea, it will turn the majority of the population into drunks and drug addicts, watching TV and doing nothing all day...

If you want to be free in life and not to worry about money, you have to work hard first to get your FY money, this is the only way you will appreciate them and the freedom they provide...

Re: Finland is scrapping plans to extend its basic income project

#118

Post by matte_black »

icebraining wrote: post #114
matte_black wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Where is that home? In the US, would it be in SF, CA or Alamo, GA? A dense, tall building in SF could hold homes for a lot of residents at once. >I don't have a license, does that mean I only get a bicycle instead of a car? It means you get a car when you learn to drive, or else just take a bus. > What about gas? Electric vehicle > What's "free utilities" - how much can I consume? A set amount per month based on re…

A dense, tall building in SF could hold homes for a lot of residents at once. That's not the point. An apartment in a dense, tall building in SF will still cost more than an apartment in a dense, tall building almost anywhere else. Who gets to live in SF if too many people want to? It means you get a car when you learn to drive, or else just take a bus. So your UBI discriminates against people who can't drive, who ar…

> That's not the point. An apartment in a dense, tall building in SF will still cost more than an apartment in a dense, tall building almost anywhere else. Who gets to live in SF if too many people want to?

A random lottery for high demand low supply places.

> So your UBI discriminates against people who can't drive, who are oftentimes the people most in need. Also, it promotes massive waste, since I'll ask for a car even if I don't need one - why not, if I don't gain anything by giving it up?

Nothing wrong with public transportation, people use it all the time and much easier than parking anyway. When you’re giving stuff away you always have to accept people wasting it. Just factor it in and move on.

> Right, but "reasonable" will depend on geography (for heat/cooling), needs, etc, no? How many jobs will be required to calculate that for the 3000+ counties in the US?

Of course. This will need very few jobs, it’s just basic data analysis based on historical usage. Very automated.

> So you're producing and distributing a bunch of clothes, cars, etc, which will then be sold to companies (for low prices, obviously, since everyone has them) which will export them to other countries. Nice corporate subsidy. The WTO might have something to say about your unfair competition practices.

Considering it’s the only basic car people can get I doubt they will just sell it off so easily. Government can always buy it back too, cheaper than making a new one. Plus regulation can easily block export of basic cars. Clothes don’t matter, people get a basic wardrobe with a few good durable pieces, not an endless closet.

Re: Finland is scrapping plans to extend its basic income project

#119

Post by jandrese »

yardie wrote: post #105
whb07 wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are already large versions of UBI already in place, just by another name. If you take a look at Saudi Arabia and other rich gulf states, there’s essentially large cash transfers to citizenry for just being alive (and of course not revolting). It is of course telling that Saudi Arabia has no sort of industry and the little they produce via Aramco has large swaths of imported experts working for them. Same applie…

> In Florida, the Seminole tribes distribute thousands of dollars/month, to each of their members just for being alive. Many of them end up having chronic issues with drug and alcohol abuse. Okay I was with you for a little bit but this part of your comment is completely off the mark. The casinos are built on tribal land. And in many cases owned by the tribe. For all intents and purposes the tribe is a corporation. M…

IMHO this is more correct than you give it credit for. Humans need to feel a sense of accomplishment to maintain their mental health over the long term. Just giving them money to survive without giving them something to do leads to high rates of depression and self destructive behavior. A good percentage of the population is not self starters, they'll sit on their ass all day long if nobody forces them to get up.

IMHO New Deal type projects are a better use of resources than UBI. Put people to work building/repairing infrastructure instead of just handing them cash and hoping they don't just spend it on drugs.

Re: Finland is scrapping plans to extend its basic income project

#120

Post by matte_black »

aeorgnoieang wrote: post #115
matte_black wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if you want a point system it becomes a separated currency from actual money.

But money is fungible, even among different currencies; think exchange rates.

What’s the value of a currency that can only be used to buy limited items?
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