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Finland is scrapping plans to extend its basic income project

businessinsider.com

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Re: Finland is scrapping plans to extend its basic income project

#131

Post by geezerjay »

bryanlarsen wrote: post #36
dandare wrote: post #7

There are two problems with universal basic income: 1/ Many people think UBI is a great idea but everybody imagines something else. This makes discussing UBI very difficult. 2/ Regardless of what version of UBI you personally support, it is probably not a good idea to give money to those who don't need it. Sooner or later people will realize that what they really want is tax/benefit reform, not universal basic income…

It is an excellent idea to give money to people who don't need it. That's the whole point of UBI. There are some other good arguments in other replies, so I won't reiterate those, but add another: peace of mind. Suppose you make $50K and support a family on that. At that level you don't need UBI, but you don't have any buffer. You get a UBI cheque every month, but the increased taxes take away most of it. Now suppose…

> It is an excellent idea to give money to people who don't need it.

How do you conclude that taking money away from those who worked for it and need it and giving it away to those who don't want it is a good idea?

Re: Finland is scrapping plans to extend its basic income project

#132

Post by magduf »

smokeyj wrote: post #111
magduf wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do UBI haters intentionally not understand wanting to have a better life? People will work at a restaurant if they don't have to so they can afford a place without crappy roommates, or in a better part of town. It's really that simple. You work, even at a crappy job, and now you have more money than you get with the UBI alone. Is this really such a hard concept for you?

> and now you have more money than you get with the UBI alone. And so does everyone else. Prices will reflect that. > Is this really such a hard concept for you? Yes, what's so hard about supply and demand? Housing costs too much? Increase supply. Healthcare costs too much? Increase supply. Education costs too much? Increase supply. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills here. It's all really simple. If you want the pric…

Ok, and WTF do you do for people who can't work, or aren't in a position to get a job, or simply cannot afford things at the prices they're at? You're never going to have free housing and food. That's why we have welfare systems, and that's what UBI aims to improve.

I feel like I'm taking crazy pills here. It's all really simple. Welfare exists for a reason, even if people like you refuse to believe this.

Re: Finland is scrapping plans to extend its basic income project

#133

Post by simplify »

whb07 wrote: post #73
alkonaut wrote: post #40

I can't see how it's theoretically possible to do a small scale experiment with UBI. If not everyone gets it, you can't see the big impact on the economy (what happens with supply/demand/inflation). And if it's with a short horizon, then people still have to plan for life after the UBI experiment. You can't give up the career you are going to need to make a living in 2 years time, just because you get paid a small su…

There are already large versions of UBI already in place, just by another name. If you take a look at Saudi Arabia and other rich gulf states, there’s essentially large cash transfers to citizenry for just being alive (and of course not revolting). It is of course telling that Saudi Arabia has no sort of industry and the little they produce via Aramco has large swaths of imported experts working for them. Same applie…

> Many of them end up having chronic issues with drug and alcohol abuse.

I don't think this is a constructive statement to make unless you compare rates between UBI and non-UBI.

Re: Finland is scrapping plans to extend its basic income project

#135

Post by reaperducer »

japhyr wrote: post #96
telchar wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course that's not just a basic income, that's a full cushy income. A better example with be Alaska which uses ok revenues to give a subsidy to residents of the state.

We get about $1000/year, and the cost of living here is higher than just about any other state. You can't really compare the Alaska PFD to a UBI.

When I lived in Wisconsin, we got $400/year. Officially it was to help pay for heat in the winter, but I always thought of it as a consolation prize for having to live in Wisconsin.

I hear Minnesotans get a stipend, too.

Re: Finland is scrapping plans to extend its basic income project

#136

Post by rickdg »

dandare wrote: post #7

There are two problems with universal basic income: 1/ Many people think UBI is a great idea but everybody imagines something else. This makes discussing UBI very difficult. 2/ Regardless of what version of UBI you personally support, it is probably not a good idea to give money to those who don't need it. Sooner or later people will realize that what they really want is tax/benefit reform, not universal basic income…

What I read from the diagram is that we are looking towards an horizon where corporations can keep increasing profits while employing less people and there is nothing we can do about it. Do we simply have to accept that economic growth ultimately benefits fewer and fewer people? Or do you simply believe that somehow jobs will never disappear?

Re: Finland is scrapping plans to extend its basic income project

#137

Post by japhyr »

reaperducer wrote: post #135
japhyr wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We get about $1000/year, and the cost of living here is higher than just about any other state. You can't really compare the Alaska PFD to a UBI.

When I lived in Wisconsin, we got $400/year. Officially it was to help pay for heat in the winter, but I always thought of it as a consolation prize for having to live in Wisconsin. I hear Minnesotans get a stipend, too.

In 2008, the AK PFD hit its all time high of $2069, and we got an "Alaska Resource Rebate" of $1200. Every family in the state who qualified got $3269 per person. In large families, that was a windfall.

That said, I think that was the winter that was extra cold and windy. We were living in a house with a boiler, and it wasn't adjusted right one month. That month's heating bill was over $500.

Heating costs are serious business. We got a deal on the house we bought because renters couldn't afford to heat the whole house one winter, and the cold and damp in the rest of the house caused enough damage to bring down the value of the house.

I didn't know there were other states that offered blanket assistance like you described, that's pretty interesting to know.

Re: Finland is scrapping plans to extend its basic income project

#138

Post by _mhyx »

I don't see a top level comment mentioning this, but what if UBI just doesn't work? That's certainly possible - that it works seems to be taken as a given, and evidence against that seems to be dismissed frequently in this thread.

A lot of things that work seem like they shouldn't (flight, capitalism) even after a lot of consideration - similarly, a lot of things that don't work seem like they should (Mendelian genetics). Maybe this unfortunately just doesn't work?

Re: Finland is scrapping plans to extend its basic income project

#139

Post by whb07 »

yardie wrote: post #105
whb07 wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are already large versions of UBI already in place, just by another name. If you take a look at Saudi Arabia and other rich gulf states, there’s essentially large cash transfers to citizenry for just being alive (and of course not revolting). It is of course telling that Saudi Arabia has no sort of industry and the little they produce via Aramco has large swaths of imported experts working for them. Same applie…

> In Florida, the Seminole tribes distribute thousands of dollars/month, to each of their members just for being alive. Many of them end up having chronic issues with drug and alcohol abuse. Okay I was with you for a little bit but this part of your comment is completely off the mark. The casinos are built on tribal land. And in many cases owned by the tribe. For all intents and purposes the tribe is a corporation. M…

I mean, my little sister grew up with a member of the Seminole tribe in SFla, I can tell you from experience that her family didn’t have what is considered a “job”.

Also, my friend was a medical doctor tending to a large group of them and would constantly comment on their alcoholism and shenanigans (which sounded awesome) with atvs and off-roading.

I don’t really understand what you’re nitpicking with the money passed to tribesmen though.

In theory UBI is passed to every one in the US based on citizenship. Same applies for that cash transfer for the seminoles. Same thing goes for Saudis and other gulf state members. Same thing applies if you were a stupendously wealthy man, you’d probably pass some cash around down to your descendants.

A rose by any name, I’d say.

Re: Finland is scrapping plans to extend its basic income project

#140

Post by mrep »

wgerard wrote: post #59
prostoalex wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the people don't all become listless and stop contributing Well, in the US two groups that do get state distributions - residents of Alaska and those on Native American reservations - do have disproportionate rates of substance abuse (mainly alcohol). As far as seniors who get pensions, what is your definition of "contributing"? In many cases they are eligible for those pensions only once they declare themselves re…

> residents of Alaska Probably a bad example to bring up. The Alaska fund distributions amount to roughly ~$1.5k a year. Not quite the same as a pension or UBI. I'll probably get egg on my face for saying this, but I highly doubt anyone in Alaska lives solely on fund distributions. Further, as noted [1], the "dividend had no effect on employment, and increased part-time work by 1.8 percentage points (17 percent)... o…

One of my intern friends a few years ago was from Alaska. He said all that money practically goes towards heating because it gets so freaking cold in the winter.
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