Finland is scrapping plans to extend its basic income project • Hacker News Board

Re: Finland is scrapping plans to extend its basic income project

#31

Post by ghaff » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 1:05 PM UTC

dandare wrote: post #24

magduf wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>2/ Regardless of what version of UBI you personally support, it is probably not a good idea to give money to those who don't need it. Wrong. The system doesn't work if you don't give people to money who don't need it: the administrative requirements of assessing who and who doesn't need it, and then policing all this, is just too high. This is the reason UBI was invented in the first place! It's very simple: you giv…

Thank you for proving my point. And now look at the numbers in my diagram, the administrative costs are negligible compared to the cost of giving money to those who don't need it.

And, in the US, the administrative overhead is apparently less than about 10%, [1] which you're not actually going to completely eliminate unless you plan to cut pretty much all social support programs other than sticking money in a bank account every month.

[1] https://www.cbpp.org/research/romneys-charge-that-most-feder...

Re: Finland is scrapping plans to extend its basic income project

#32

Post by jnwatson » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 1:05 PM UTC

praha14 wrote: post #4

I understand the argument that, once free from work, a number of people will voluntarily choose to work as physicists or playwrights or mathematicians. What I haven’t understood, though, is why someone would choose to work as a bricklayer or spend their 20s sitting in a fluorescent office designing an industrial process to make ball-bearing lubricant 0.4% more efficient. It’s that sort of menial, unglamorous labor th…

At one point in my life, I voluntarily gave up my job writing software to go sell it, even though I preferred the former. Why? To make more money.

It is true there are some folks who are fine with making the minimum, however I’d wager most would take a job to increase their income significantly.

Re: Finland is scrapping plans to extend its basic income project

#33

Post by rc_hadoken » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 1:06 PM UTC

magduf wrote: post #23

praha14 wrote: post #4

I understand the argument that, once free from work, a number of people will voluntarily choose to work as physicists or playwrights or mathematicians. What I haven’t understood, though, is why someone would choose to work as a bricklayer or spend their 20s sitting in a fluorescent office designing an industrial process to make ball-bearing lubricant 0.4% more efficient. It’s that sort of menial, unglamorous labor th…

That's because, for some strange reason, you're confusing UBI with some idealized form of communism. UBI is Universal Basic Income. The keyword here is "basic". If you sit on your ass and collect UBI, you should receive enough money to let you live in a crappy apartment with roommates, and get some crappy food to eat at the local crappy grocery store. Do you want to live in a crappy apartment with roommates, and not…

Some people have no conception of crappy. I do get your point.

Re: Finland is scrapping plans to extend its basic income project

#34

Post by akvadrako » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 1:06 PM UTC

JibJabLab wrote: post #25

Shivetya wrote: post #5

Well it will be interesting to see if they do publish any findings. I do agree it would have been beneficial to see what would happen if workers were added to the mix. The question some like myself would like to see is, did any of the initial participants gain employment and leave the program? What did they do differently while provided with UBI they did not do before. I would also like to see if they will be followe…

My issue with it is that we aren't even at a point where UBI is viable. Yes, we have lots of automation but we still have many times more jobs still not automated. The experiment isn't going to show accurate results. But I agree with you - there will still be work available in an automated society.

UBI doesn't need automation at all; the big question is if society is more productive with it or with traditional welfare. That's why experiments are needed.

Re: Finland is scrapping plans to extend its basic income project

#35

Post by realusername » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 1:07 PM UTC

praha14 wrote: post #4

I understand the argument that, once free from work, a number of people will voluntarily choose to work as physicists or playwrights or mathematicians. What I haven’t understood, though, is why someone would choose to work as a bricklayer or spend their 20s sitting in a fluorescent office designing an industrial process to make ball-bearing lubricant 0.4% more efficient. It’s that sort of menial, unglamorous labor th…

If the work isn't interesting, it just means the employer will need to pay more to attract people, UBI isn't a world without salaries.

Re: Finland is scrapping plans to extend its basic income project

#36

Post by bryanlarsen » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 1:07 PM UTC

dandare wrote: post #7

There are two problems with universal basic income: 1/ Many people think UBI is a great idea but everybody imagines something else. This makes discussing UBI very difficult. 2/ Regardless of what version of UBI you personally support, it is probably not a good idea to give money to those who don't need it. Sooner or later people will realize that what they really want is tax/benefit reform, not universal basic income…

It is an excellent idea to give money to people who don't need it. That's the whole point of UBI. There are some other good arguments in other replies, so I won't reiterate those, but add another: peace of mind.

Suppose you make $50K and support a family on that. At that level you don't need UBI, but you don't have any buffer. You get a UBI cheque every month, but the increased taxes take away most of it. Now suppose something comes up at work that makes it intolerable. You know that it's going to be pretty difficult to prove that to the unemployment office, so without UBI you'd just grin and bear it to keep food on the table. But you see those UBI cheques coming regularly so you know they won't stop. You now have the freedom to quit your job and look for another one without starving your children.

Re: Finland is scrapping plans to extend its basic income project

#37

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 1:08 PM UTC

praha14 wrote: post #4

I understand the argument that, once free from work, a number of people will voluntarily choose to work as physicists or playwrights or mathematicians. What I haven’t understood, though, is why someone would choose to work as a bricklayer or spend their 20s sitting in a fluorescent office designing an industrial process to make ball-bearing lubricant 0.4% more efficient. It’s that sort of menial, unglamorous labor th…

[deleted]

Re: Finland is scrapping plans to extend its basic income project

#38

Post by smokeyj » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 1:09 PM UTC

magduf wrote: post #20

dandare wrote: post #7

There are two problems with universal basic income: 1/ Many people think UBI is a great idea but everybody imagines something else. This makes discussing UBI very difficult. 2/ Regardless of what version of UBI you personally support, it is probably not a good idea to give money to those who don't need it. Sooner or later people will realize that what they really want is tax/benefit reform, not universal basic income…

>2/ Regardless of what version of UBI you personally support, it is probably not a good idea to give money to those who don't need it. Wrong. The system doesn't work if you don't give people to money who don't need it: the administrative requirements of assessing who and who doesn't need it, and then policing all this, is just too high. This is the reason UBI was invented in the first place! It's very simple: you giv…

> the administrative requirements of assessing who and who doesn't need it, and then policing all this, is just too high

Oh okay this makes sense.

> To make up for this, you raise the taxes a commensurate amount on the people who don't need it

Wait just a second..

Re: Finland is scrapping plans to extend its basic income project

#39

Post by benjohnson » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 1:09 PM UTC

drdaeman wrote: post #14

dandare wrote: post #7

There are two problems with universal basic income: 1/ Many people think UBI is a great idea but everybody imagines something else. This makes discussing UBI very difficult. 2/ Regardless of what version of UBI you personally support, it is probably not a good idea to give money to those who don't need it. Sooner or later people will realize that what they really want is tax/benefit reform, not universal basic income…

> Everybody thinks UBI is a great idea Irrespective of anyone's personal opinion, I'm absolutely sure it's not everybody. And there are valid reasons for this - but every opponent also imagines something different, just as proponents do.

I don't want it - I have a real knack of stretching money and I could very well see myself becoming lazy if given a dependable source of unearned income.

Re: Finland is scrapping plans to extend its basic income project

#40

Post by alkonaut » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 1:10 PM UTC

I can't see how it's theoretically possible to do a small scale experiment with UBI. If not everyone gets it, you can't see the big impact on the economy (what happens with supply/demand/inflation). And if it's with a short horizon, then people still have to plan for life after the UBI experiment.

You can't give up the career you are going to need to make a living in 2 years time, just because you get paid a small sum per month for 2 years.

So I can't see how experiments are worthwhile unless you actually go in head first. UBI should be announced as universal and forever, or it isn't "proper" UBI, and doesn't show the effects of UBI.

This is also the reason why no one tries it.