Who's Missing from America's Colleges? Rural High School Graduates • Hacker News Board

Re: Who's Missing from America's Colleges? Rural High School Graduates

#201

Post by austincheney » Fri, Feb 23, 2018, 10:12 AM UTC

gilgoomesh wrote: post #150

austincheney wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Most jobs that do require higher education don't actually make any use of the higher education. This is a serious misunderstanding of what education is or is for. Higher education doesn't exist to provide a skill. That is what trade schools are for. I know this is largely disagreeable for many people on here who learned to program in a university CS program. Higher education exists to provide the educational backgr…

I know that's what everyone claims but it's an insidious trope that encourages people to trust in a system that lacks measurable benefit. "Don't worry that you'll never use this information. Trust us: we've prepared you in nebulous ways that can't be measured or critiqued."

The benefit is articulation and the ability to create and respond to initiative. The measurable benefit is the strategic success of a person's later career.

Another way to think about it is whether you need to be told explicitly what you do for a job or whether you are given a field of problems to solve for (implied tasks). One of those is far more limited in risk and potential while the other is far more benefited by higher education.

Re: Who's Missing from America's Colleges? Rural High School Graduates

#202

Post by kelnos » Fri, Feb 23, 2018, 10:14 AM UTC

gilbetron wrote: post #107

Barrin92 wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>choosing to live in an area where you're geographically separated from other people people aren't created out of a vacuum and randomly choose a place to live. What if your 70 year old mother is simply too frail to move to a city? What if you desperately need the monthly paycheck and cannot just go months without pay looking for a job because you care for your child? What if you simply do not want your community to r…

Honest question: why should people pay for your lifestyle just because you choose it? I live in a small city, but if it stopped being capable of supporting itself and suburbs (somehow) were more sustainable, I would move to them. Sitting in a low per-capita situation is economically infeasible for many, so they should either live with what they have or adapt. I would love to sit around and read fiction for a living,…

You seem to vastly overestimate the choices people have, especially those who live in rural areas where there are more people than jobs, and many people live paycheck to paycheck. You mention "not having enough money" -- yes, that's exactly it, and many (most?) of the people in that situation don't have a way out of it. You can't get a better paying job where you live if there isn't one, or at least isn't one you're qualified for. You can't keep your job at home and travel to a city to interview for a better job if you don't have the money for transportation, or can't get (or afford) the time off to interview.

Re: Who's Missing from America's Colleges? Rural High School Graduates

#203

Post by 1k2ka » Fri, Feb 23, 2018, 10:41 AM UTC

jjeaff wrote: post #184

hermitdev wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let me preface by: I don't mean to offend, but I think your perception is fundamentally wrong. Rural folk don't want help from your "our" because their situation is different than yours. What works for major metropolitan areas doesn't work for small or rural schools. In an area where likely career paths involve working on or inheriting the family farm or ranch, more urban-centric curricula don't make sense. It's not…

Since you mentioned having a gun, this is one of the huge differences between your average liberal elite and the average rural dweller. People on the left simply don't understand the difference of living on your own. The independence is completely at a different level. You may very well need a gun to fend off some crazy banging at your door that won't go away. In the city, you have the assumption that the cops will s…

Does the possibility of needing to fend off some lunatic outweigh all the negatives of loose gun control? Rural residents will still be able to own a gun but maybe they should pass a psych test first and maybe that gun shouldn't be military grade.

Re: Who's Missing from America's Colleges? Rural High School Graduates

#204

Post by dsfyu404ed » Fri, Feb 23, 2018, 11:12 AM UTC

prewett wrote: post #129

stevenwoo wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The little town in Texas that voted to put libertarians in charge is a decent cautionary tale. https://www.texasobserver.org/the-rise-and-fall-of-the-frees...

After reading the article I'd say that the problems were caused primarily by personal conflicts. Any problems with libertarian philosophy did not have a chance to surface because they were completely swamped by the dysfunction of town leaders.

They tried to have their cake and eat it too. I think that played no small part.

They incorporated as a town to save their way of life as an unincorporated community then got greedy and tried to to town things without a town budget.

Re: Who's Missing from America's Colleges? Rural High School Graduates

#205

Post by pharke » Fri, Feb 23, 2018, 11:42 AM UTC

evoloution wrote: post #163

throwaway0255 wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I mentioned government-mandated credentials, I was thinking more of the medical and legal fields. Software engineering is ideal in this respect, because it's pretty much unregulated in that regard. That makes software engineering an ideal choice for people not going to college at all. But since you're already 4 years in, you might as well finish. So definitely finish. Outside of credentialism, there's still the…

This, finish and go to the best Uni you can; everything else that anyone tells you may not serve you well. Although throwaway0255 is making an argument about whether you could achieve better education by yourself vs. an organized university curriculum, you should never overlook the effect that a degree from a prestigious University can have. In most fields companies hire people from the highest ranked Universities, w…

> Unis are becoming the tool of class formation

I'd argue they've already been that for at least several years if not, less brazenly, for a few decades and that the article these comments are in response to is strong evidence to support that determination.

The network effects generated by adding people to your social circle from a group that are at the same career stage and aiming to work in the same industry are also very strong. It is highly likely that they will be the source of job opportunities, recommendations, and useful advice for many years to come.

None of this is really necessary, there are plenty of positions out there that don't receive applicants hailing from top tier universities and making friends with people in your field only requires a modicum of grace and the willingness to put the time in at the appropriate events.

Generally, I agree with the sentiment that the position that universities currently hold is ripe for replacement. The second that someone figures out a workable model that serves most of the important functions (accreditation, education, networking, access to experts, research funding) for a reasonable price the die will be cast.

Re: Who's Missing from America's Colleges? Rural High School Graduates

#206

Post by cinquemb » Fri, Feb 23, 2018, 11:51 AM UTC

arkh wrote: post #192

hrktb wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Lately, academics seem to be shifting their value proposition to the instillation of this undetectable unmeasurable X-factor. We can't see it, we can't prove that it exists, but it's there, and its value is absolutely incalculable. How convenient for the sales pitch is this. The cost of college forces some people to also argument for better revenue opportunities and better fit for future jobs, because otherwise bur…

> In countries where university are cheaper nobody bats an eye at someone going through the cycles just for the sake of it, purely to learn interesting things. We do. Every year discovering yourself is a year you're not productive. Those cheaper university fees come from taxes which you need employed people to pay. I'd argue the US system is fairer: people who enjoy university education pay for it. In Europe, people…

>I'd argue the US system is fairer: people who enjoy university education pay for it.

Stateside, as NPL rates increases with the nominal prices of attending, this becomes less true on top of that it is assumed that future taxes will support these increases well into the future.

Re: Who's Missing from America's Colleges? Rural High School Graduates

#207

Post by ddaygold » Fri, Feb 23, 2018, 11:56 AM UTC

1k2ka wrote: post #203

jjeaff wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since you mentioned having a gun, this is one of the huge differences between your average liberal elite and the average rural dweller. People on the left simply don't understand the difference of living on your own. The independence is completely at a different level. You may very well need a gun to fend off some crazy banging at your door that won't go away. In the city, you have the assumption that the cops will s…

Does the possibility of needing to fend off some lunatic outweigh all the negatives of loose gun control? Rural residents will still be able to own a gun but maybe they should pass a psych test first and maybe that gun shouldn't be military grade.

The laws banning military grade weapons already exist -- the civilian AR-15 is not an military grade M-16, it is difficult to obtain an automatic weapon, destructive devices are banned-ish.

Fundamentally the problem is that gun ownership is a core American ideal (to enough electorally well placed people), so outright bans are infeasible and other restrictions cause a race by manufacturers to innovate around the restrictions.

Re: Who's Missing from America's Colleges? Rural High School Graduates

#208

Post by lxmorj » Fri, Feb 23, 2018, 11:57 AM UTC

jjeaff wrote: post #184

hermitdev wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let me preface by: I don't mean to offend, but I think your perception is fundamentally wrong. Rural folk don't want help from your "our" because their situation is different than yours. What works for major metropolitan areas doesn't work for small or rural schools. In an area where likely career paths involve working on or inheriting the family farm or ranch, more urban-centric curricula don't make sense. It's not…

Since you mentioned having a gun, this is one of the huge differences between your average liberal elite and the average rural dweller. People on the left simply don't understand the difference of living on your own. The independence is completely at a different level. You may very well need a gun to fend off some crazy banging at your door that won't go away. In the city, you have the assumption that the cops will s…

The gun you want for reasonable home defense / deterrence in a rural setting is a shotgun, no? Very different to the assault rifle proxies typical used in mass shootings.

Re: Who's Missing from America's Colleges? Rural High School Graduates

#209

Post by StudentStuff » Fri, Feb 23, 2018, 12:03 PM UTC

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #158

hermitdev wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It depends on where you are. I think your impression that most universities are in small towns is an apt description of midwestern universities (i.e. states like Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, etc). It doesn't hold for either the west or east coast, really. See U of Washington, U of Oregon, Oregon State, state schools of California, state schools of New York, etc, etc. Sure, they might be in smaller cities, but…

UW has a pretty good CS program, and is less than 8 hours away from Missoula (if you lived close to there). UW unfortunately does not offer in state tuition to border states (unless from certain native american tribes).

Good luck getting into UW's CSE program as an American with a non-perfect GPA. Nearly always you'll get rejected and end up getting a Business or Geography degree (as either will accept you), neither of which are worth the paper they're written on.

UW's main campus is not a school worth going to, the programs that are worth taking have so many people applying that if you don't have connections or cash to burn, you won't get in.

Re: Who's Missing from America's Colleges? Rural High School Graduates

#210

Post by pharke » Fri, Feb 23, 2018, 12:05 PM UTC

mozumder wrote: post #190

throwawayfjk wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would assume that the rural are rational to the same degree as anyone else, so the statistical difference mostly means they find college less beneficial relative to their opportunities. There is too much of an agenda feel to this piece, from the title to selective interviews and statistics

> I would assume that the rural are rational to the same degree as anyone else, The rural have limited social interaction, leading to a biased worldview.

I've had more social interaction thrust upon me living in a rural community than I have ever been subject to while living in a city. You can't avoid it out in the country due to the fact your neighbours will incessantly invite you to events they are hosting, drop by to see how things are going, ask if you need a hand the second they see you working on something outside, etc.

Given a smaller total number of people, the number you have meaningful interactions with on a day to day basis actually winds up being higher since each person isn't just another 2 - 5 minute encounter but someone that you see regularly, who likely lives nearby, who knows other people that you've met, and frequents the same locations. It's a tighter knit.

You also don't have the luxury of choosing the people that you establish a rapport with, whereas living in a large centre I could easily pick and choose the people I associate with based on how much they agree with my views and opinions. I may not agree with the people I know now 100% of the time but we make it work, being polite and reasonable seems to come with the territory.