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Who's Missing from America's Colleges? Rural High School Graduates

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Re: Who's Missing from America's Colleges? Rural High School Graduates

#161

Post by forapurpose »

throwaway0255 wrote: post #94

Most jobs don't require higher education. Most jobs that do require higher education don't actually make any use of the higher education. Are people who didn't follow the author up the ivory tower all failures who just fell through the cracks? What if some people are perfectly happy working in HVAC? These articles are always so condescending. The position that all people should by default go to college and that peopl…

These claims appear on many HN threads but I have yet to see much support for them, only assertions, anecdotes and Internet-style rants. They wouldn't stand up in an undergraduate college class.

Re: Who's Missing from America's Colleges? Rural High School Graduates

#162

Post by forapurpose »

austincheney wrote: post #145
throwaway0255 wrote: post #94

Most jobs don't require higher education. Most jobs that do require higher education don't actually make any use of the higher education. Are people who didn't follow the author up the ivory tower all failures who just fell through the cracks? What if some people are perfectly happy working in HVAC? These articles are always so condescending. The position that all people should by default go to college and that peopl…

> Most jobs that do require higher education don't actually make any use of the higher education. This is a serious misunderstanding of what education is or is for. Higher education doesn't exist to provide a skill. That is what trade schools are for. I know this is largely disagreeable for many people on here who learned to program in a university CS program. Higher education exists to provide the educational backgr…

> Higher education exists to provide the educational background necessary to function in a professional

To function as a person, a parent, a community member, a citizen, a consumer, a producer ...

Re: Who's Missing from America's Colleges? Rural High School Graduates

#163

Post by evoloution »

throwaway0255 wrote: post #152
bernardino wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This comes at, I think, a critical point for me. In short, I spent four years at a community college (completing my associate degree in CS and exhausting almost all the courses I found interesting i.e. Mysticism, Writing Short Fiction, etc), and now in the fall I'm planning to attend San Francisco State University for CS. A few old high school friends, who attend Berkeley (one just graduated and is starting work in f…

When I mentioned government-mandated credentials, I was thinking more of the medical and legal fields. Software engineering is ideal in this respect, because it's pretty much unregulated in that regard. That makes software engineering an ideal choice for people not going to college at all. But since you're already 4 years in, you might as well finish. So definitely finish. Outside of credentialism, there's still the…

This, finish and go to the best Uni you can; everything else that anyone tells you may not serve you well. Although throwaway0255 is making an argument about whether you could achieve better education by yourself vs. an organized university curriculum, you should never overlook the effect that a degree from a prestigious University can have. In most fields companies hire people from the highest ranked Universities, when there is a recession they still hire those ones even if they hire fewer people in total. Money and time spent in a top-tier University always pays off either by prestige, connections or just by the network that you build there. That is how US works currently, top Unis are becoming the tool of class formation. Plus while in Uni you can still do what you want if your part time jobs are not very demanding. Finally, for most people with not enough fu money, this is the last time to really experiment without putting their livelihoods on the line.

Re: Who's Missing from America's Colleges? Rural High School Graduates

#164

Post by forapurpose »

bernardino wrote: post #139
throwaway0255 wrote: post #94

Most jobs don't require higher education. Most jobs that do require higher education don't actually make any use of the higher education. Are people who didn't follow the author up the ivory tower all failures who just fell through the cracks? What if some people are perfectly happy working in HVAC? These articles are always so condescending. The position that all people should by default go to college and that peopl…

This comes at, I think, a critical point for me. In short, I spent four years at a community college (completing my associate degree in CS and exhausting almost all the courses I found interesting i.e. Mysticism, Writing Short Fiction, etc), and now in the fall I'm planning to attend San Francisco State University for CS. A few old high school friends, who attend Berkeley (one just graduated and is starting work in f…

> While college, as you mentioned, has become just a pursuit for "paper credentials for a specialized position you want ...

You are going to cost yourself a lifetime of benefit if you make a decision based on these Internet rants of the moment; in 10 years they will be forgotten and you will be stuck with the consequences. One thing you learn with a real education is how to evaluate serious ideas and separate them from trendy memes. College is so much more beneficial and fulfilling than the quote above, in almost every aspect of life. If you love to learn, there is no better place - no place else will a professor guide your study, advise you, answer your questions, and give you feedback in any subject you like, or will you have a room full of peers studying and discussing the same thing, or will you have the resources - from labs to reference librarians. It will transform you as a person.

> What do you think I should do?

Don't rely people on Internet bulletin boards for serious advice!

EDIT: I'm not in any way trying to tell you what to do; that's your business, and it depends on things I couldn't possibly know from even 100 HN posts. I'm just saying don't base your decision on trendy ideas and Internet advice. Also, to address a specific question, degrees from better schools absolutely provide you with better opportunities. Many organizations restrict hiring to only certain schools, and the people you befriend will provide better opportunities in the future. Steve Ballmer became CEO of Microsoft because he knew Bill Gates at Harvard. Note that you can always go to a better graduate school too. If you don't know that, take it as s sign that you have a lot of research in front of you. Good luck!

Re: Who's Missing from America's Colleges? Rural High School Graduates

#165

Post by zamfi »

throwaway0255 wrote: post #135
vanilla_nut wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand, I come from a rural area and I feel that college was absolutely worth it for me, even with the huge bill that I had to pay myself. (I graduated fairly recently) College was the first time in my life when I feel like I truly took responsibility for myself, and people generally thought I was a responsible kid growing up. I finally found myself in a place where I could make friends who shared interest…

> It's important to keep in mind that college is meant to enrich people as individuals, not explicitly prepare them for jobs. Technical/vocational schools are for job prep. The more college is shown to be failing the job market, the more I hear this argument. Are people who don't go to college less enriched individuals? Lately, academics seem to be shifting their value proposition to the instillation of this undetect…

> Lately, academics seem to be shifting their value proposition to the instillation of this undetectable unmeasurable X-factor. We can't see it, we can't prove that it exists, but it's there, and its value is absolutely incalculable.

Historically, college was a finishing school for the wealthy. This is not a new argument.

The new argument is that colleges should provide job training. Previously, this was the role of vocational or training schools.

Re: Who's Missing from America's Colleges? Rural High School Graduates

#166

Post by jonathankoren »

zdragnar wrote: post #104
throwaway0255 wrote: post #94

Most jobs don't require higher education. Most jobs that do require higher education don't actually make any use of the higher education. Are people who didn't follow the author up the ivory tower all failures who just fell through the cracks? What if some people are perfectly happy working in HVAC? These articles are always so condescending. The position that all people should by default go to college and that peopl…

It's not even just the utility of the degree, it's the cost. Investing $20-100k plus four to 8 years lost work experience (depending on number of degrees) is, for most living in rural communities, an extreme luxury. Considering the economic gap between metropolitan areas and rural communities, pretty much any degree not directly related to work preparation and placement is a luxury good that few can afford.

The economic adversary is often greatly mitigated by federal Pell Grants[0] and similar state level programs, especially when the student attends a junior college for the first two years.

As the article pointed out, the difference isn't academic, or even really economics, it's cultural. It's the attitude that college is for muckity mucks, and just a place to get brainwashed, along with "My dad didn't college, and he was fine. So I don't have to go." (Never mind that the mine the father worked in closed 15 years ago.) This attitude isn't a rural thing, as much as it is a rural male thing.[1]

Even if we ignored all of this, and focused just on economics, Your "4 - 8 years [of] lost work experience", is most likely experience in nothing relevant to whatever job you get after college. Being cashier at Dollar General isn't relevant to really anything, except being a cashier somewhere. This is the type of job you get with no education past high school. Even if you were stretch "relevant" to "life skills like showing up on time", then just get the part time job in college like many college students.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pell_Grant [1] https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2017/11/gender-...

Re: Who's Missing from America's Colleges? Rural High School Graduates

#167

Post by orionblastar »

I learned programming by myself at age 12 on a Commodore 64, in modern times kids get a tablet for school that cost almost as much as the Commodore 64 and 1541 drive cost me.

Tablets have caused Toys r Us and others to go out of business. You see I learned science from some of the toys my parents bought me, Legos, Tinker Toys, Lincoln Logs, board games, etc. When I went UMR and joined a fraternity there I already had memorized Trivia Pursuit cards from my younger years.

You don't need college to learn how to program, there are classes on the Internet.

Re: Who's Missing from America's Colleges? Rural High School Graduates

#168

Post by lev99 »

Fomite wrote: post #98
Slansitartop wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's true, and actually amplifies the point I was trying to get across. A low rural cost of living doesn't help low-income rural kids afford college, since the college is likely in a higher income city area and priced accordingly.

Agricultural and land grant schools are often not in urban areas - and far closer to where rural kids are growing up, and have more helpful programs to help them in their actual careers. Washington State University, for example, is vastly more affordable to live near than the University of Washington, and has agriculture, forestry and farming oriented majors, as well as all the ones you'd typically expect.

The cost of living in rural agricultural areas is less than the cost of living in the towns with top agricultural programs.

Re: Who's Missing from America's Colleges? Rural High School Graduates

#169

Post by Fomite »

lev99 wrote: post #168
Fomite wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agricultural and land grant schools are often not in urban areas - and far closer to where rural kids are growing up, and have more helpful programs to help them in their actual careers. Washington State University, for example, is vastly more affordable to live near than the University of Washington, and has agriculture, forestry and farming oriented majors, as well as all the ones you'd typically expect.

The cost of living in rural agricultural areas is less than the cost of living in the towns with top agricultural programs.

True, but I don't think it's fair to characterize them as "higher income city areas".

Re: Who's Missing from America's Colleges? Rural High School Graduates

#170

Post by jonathankoren »

zdragnar wrote: post #137
huac wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most elite universities have income-based financial aid and going to one could easily conceivably be cheaper or at least on par with going to a state school. Of course one big problem is that rural students don't know that

A friend of mine chose the college we went to specifically because she was told about all the need-based financial aid that's available to students like her. You know, the kind that grew up learning to pick the mold off the bread and how awful government cheese was. Imagine her surprise when there's no such thing as a free ride, and there wasn't actually so much available. Also, if you think there's enough "elite" un…

As someone that grew up in the rural midwest and visits family there every year, there's not much rural life has to offer anyone in 2018, including jobs of any type.

Let's not romanticize this as Salt of the Earth Folk. In 25 years, where I grew up turned into Methlandia, complete with lowering lifespans, and lowering standards of living. It's heartbreaking really.

Technical schools don't really matter, because there isn't a job for you to be trained for. Either the job left, or if job is still there, there's a lot fewer open slots due to automation. That's just cold facts.

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