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Who's Missing from America's Colleges? Rural High School Graduates

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Re: Who's Missing from America's Colleges? Rural High School Graduates

#101

Post by hermitdev »

forapurpose wrote: post #89
lugg wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is that people from rural areas or just people in rural areas? Because less people in higher education in rural areas shouldn't suprise anyone. People generally move or commute to cities for higher education and that isn't really news. So depending what those numbers really mean could be significant.

> People generally move or commute to cities for higher education I'm not sure that's true. My impression is that most universities are in small towns. In the U.S., that describes many large state universities. I would guess that the cost of land in cities is a big reason. EDIT: With many large universities enrolling tens of thousands of students, plus employing faculty and staff and supporting all the third parties…

It depends on where you are. I think your impression that most universities are in small towns is an apt description of midwestern universities (i.e. states like Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, etc). It doesn't hold for either the west or east coast, really. See U of Washington, U of Oregon, Oregon State, state schools of California, state schools of New York, etc, etc. Sure, they might be in smaller cities, but larger cities than most states even have.

I grew up in rural Montana and wanted to study Electrical & Computer Engineering. I didn't really have a choice to stay in state (and get my degrees from a quality program). I could have studied at University of Montana, but that would have left me with a degree that, for what I wanted to do, would have been worthless. Sure, I could have made the 30-45 minute commute and gotten a cheap degree, but the result would have been a degree I didn't want.

For an in-state state-school engineering degree, I'd have had to at a minimum gone to Montana State University (5+ hours from my parents' house). MSU doesn't have much of a EE/CPE department, but does have some good engineering programs (like chemical). I had to go to Chicago to find the program I wanted.

Re: Who's Missing from America's Colleges? Rural High School Graduates

#102

Post by forapurpose »

QuarterReptile wrote: post #74
spamizbad wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For those not in poverty what you describe is -- indirectly -- a feature not a bug Schools are disappearing because there is no tax base to support them, and the remaining residents tend to favor an austere government. There's also a degree of distrust of governmental organizations. There are a lot of small towns where, if the state government came in and said "We're going to build you a school for free and you won't…

I'm just going to point out regarding schools: if you let the state come build it for you, you're probably going to get a big, deadly dumpster fire of a school. It'll be a regional consolidated school so they can put a huge educational campus all in one place. It'll be far from any town because that's where the land is cheap. Everyone will have to choose between driving their kids to school or putting them on hour-lo…

> if you let the state come build it for you, you're probably going to get a big, deadly dumpster fire of a school

An interesting theory, but many of the top universities in the world are state universities: Berkeley, UCLA, U. of Michigan, U. of Washington, and (if Wikipedia is accurate and I understand it correctly) ETH-Zurich, University College London and University of Toronto are all top 25 global universities.[0] I'm omitting Imperial College London and LSE because I don't know their status.

[0] https://www.timeshighereducation.com/world-university-rankin...

Re: Who's Missing from America's Colleges? Rural High School Graduates

#103

Post by seany »

throwaway0255 wrote: post #94

Most jobs don't require higher education. Most jobs that do require higher education don't actually make any use of the higher education. Are people who didn't follow the author up the ivory tower all failures who just fell through the cracks? What if some people are perfectly happy working in HVAC? These articles are always so condescending. The position that all people should by default go to college and that peopl…

The Case against Education - Why the Education System Is a Waste of Time and Money. By Bryan Caplan Makes many of these same points in a longer form.

Re: Who's Missing from America's Colleges? Rural High School Graduates

#104

Post by zdragnar »

throwaway0255 wrote: post #94

Most jobs don't require higher education. Most jobs that do require higher education don't actually make any use of the higher education. Are people who didn't follow the author up the ivory tower all failures who just fell through the cracks? What if some people are perfectly happy working in HVAC? These articles are always so condescending. The position that all people should by default go to college and that peopl…

It's not even just the utility of the degree, it's the cost. Investing $20-100k plus four to 8 years lost work experience (depending on number of degrees) is, for most living in rural communities, an extreme luxury.

Considering the economic gap between metropolitan areas and rural communities, pretty much any degree not directly related to work preparation and placement is a luxury good that few can afford.

Re: Who's Missing from America's Colleges? Rural High School Graduates

#105

Post by jordonwii »

js2 wrote: post #67
JoeAltmaier wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not so. The state takes our taxes and runs the schools. The rural areas get little funding for their schools, even for the same size school (the same tax base approximately). No, its city folks voting all the money to their schools. Its democracy, but its not pretty.

Not sure where you live, but in the states I've lived, it's the county or municipality that uses property taxes and runs the K-12 schools. Public universities are are subsidized by the state, but those are available equally to all of the state's residents.

In general across the country, less and less public school funding actually comes from local taxes. The state has gotten involved in most states in order to correct discrepancies in school funding between rich and poor districts (with California being one of the most involved states).

Some states still have notable funding issues between districts, though. This gives a pretty good description of the issue: https://www.npr.org/2016/04/18/474256366/why-americas-school...

Re: Who's Missing from America's Colleges? Rural High School Graduates

#106

Post by arcticfox »

hermitdev wrote: post #101
forapurpose wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People generally move or commute to cities for higher education I'm not sure that's true. My impression is that most universities are in small towns. In the U.S., that describes many large state universities. I would guess that the cost of land in cities is a big reason. EDIT: With many large universities enrolling tens of thousands of students, plus employing faculty and staff and supporting all the third parties…

It depends on where you are. I think your impression that most universities are in small towns is an apt description of midwestern universities (i.e. states like Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, etc). It doesn't hold for either the west or east coast, really. See U of Washington, U of Oregon, Oregon State, state schools of California, state schools of New York, etc, etc. Sure, they might be in smaller cities, but…

> U of Oregon, Oregon State ... Sure, they might be in smaller cities, but larger cities than most states even have.

What? I'm from Oregon... Eugene (UO) is population 166k, Corvallis (OSU) is 57k. Portland is like 3x bigger than both combined. And UW fits your point, but WSU is so far in the middle of nowhere that it's practically in Idaho.

Re: Who's Missing from America's Colleges? Rural High School Graduates

#107

Post by gilbetron »

Barrin92 wrote: post #50
VectorLock wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why shouldn't the world focus on cities? If you're choosing to live in an area where you're geographically separated from other people can you really complain that you're not receiving benefits from systems that are more optimal when people are clustered together?

>choosing to live in an area where you're geographically separated from other people people aren't created out of a vacuum and randomly choose a place to live. What if your 70 year old mother is simply too frail to move to a city? What if you desperately need the monthly paycheck and cannot just go months without pay looking for a job because you care for your child? What if you simply do not want your community to r…

Honest question: why should people pay for your lifestyle just because you choose it? I live in a small city, but if it stopped being capable of supporting itself and suburbs (somehow) were more sustainable, I would move to them. Sitting in a low per-capita situation is economically infeasible for many, so they should either live with what they have or adapt. I would love to sit around and read fiction for a living, but I can't survive in the lifestyle I enjoy, so I don't.

"too frail" to move doesn't make sense - not having enough money does make sense. Look for a job while you have your current one - it is far easier and more successful that way anyway. Country living with a decent lifestyle is for those that have figured out a way to afford it, not for anyone that feels like it.

There are options: just because it isn't what you dream of doing doesn't mean it isn't an option.

Re: Who's Missing from America's Colleges? Rural High School Graduates

#108

Post by hermitdev »

bllguo wrote: post #97
QuarterReptile wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm just going to point out regarding schools: if you let the state come build it for you, you're probably going to get a big, deadly dumpster fire of a school. It'll be a regional consolidated school so they can put a huge educational campus all in one place. It'll be far from any town because that's where the land is cheap. Everyone will have to choose between driving their kids to school or putting them on hour-lo…

Thanks for the perspective. And because of things like this, rural folk don't want "our" help. They fall further behind, become more insular and hateful. Self-reinforcing cycle. Solving these problems is extremely important and will likely involve harsh tradeoffs. Unfortunately, in the US it feels like we need some dramatic examples before people will finally accept that tradeoffs are necessary.

Let me preface by: I don't mean to offend, but I think your perception is fundamentally wrong.

Rural folk don't want help from your "our" because their situation is different than yours. What works for major metropolitan areas doesn't work for small or rural schools. In an area where likely career paths involve working on or inheriting the family farm or ranch, more urban-centric curricula don't make sense.

It's not that rural people in the US are more insular, it's that they need to be more independent. For instance, when the nearest ambulance may be an hour away, you learn to deal with emergency medical issues yourself, or you or your loved one die. When that ambulance cannot get to your house when the husband is having a heart attack, the wife somehow manages to get her husband into a vehicle to meet the ambulance somewhere the ambulance can reach. When the nearest sheriff is likewise an hour away when you call for help, if you even have 911, the sheriff is likely going to assume you have a shotgun, tell you to get it out, load it, and use it, if necessary.

It's not that rural people in the US are insular or unaware of the rest of the US, it's that their situations are entirely different from what city dwellers encounter. Ambulances, police and fire response aren't just a few minutes away. It can be hours before emergency services arrive.

And likewise, getting to even your local school that graduates at a HS level can take an hour or more. Getting to a college or university likely will take even longer.

edit: grammar, spelling, minor bit of clarity.

Re: Who's Missing from America's Colleges? Rural High School Graduates

#109

Post by jacobolus »

vanilla_nut wrote: post #43

As a graduate of a very rural American school (to give you an idea, my entire pre-k through 12th grade school was housed in a single building, with below 500 kids total; my graduating class was just over 30 students, and I was one of 3 who went on to a 4-year school -- fewer than 10 of us went to any college at all)... this article isn't very good. Like some other commenters have pointed out, the author failed to int…

On the other hand some of my friends who grew up in rural areas grew up making tree forts and complicated mechanical gadgets, welding metal junk into weird sculptures, blowing things up with increasingly powerful homemade explosives, or wandering around in the forest studying local insects, etc. The available “enriching experiences” are just a different sort than those available in a big city.

Higher population density is definitely helpful to most people with niche interests though.

Re: Who's Missing from America's Colleges? Rural High School Graduates

#110

Post by dsfyu404ed »

This author takes for granted that rural students are politically compatible with college campuses. They're not.

All the barriers to attending and graduating college are severely aggravated when the people you'll be around at college do not share and cannot relate to your life experiences or values and a significant fraction of whom will see you as a backwards hick.

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