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Who's Missing from America's Colleges? Rural High School Graduates

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Re: Who's Missing from America's Colleges? Rural High School Graduates

#181

Post by aianus »

eric_b wrote: post #120
bllguo wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

because it's more efficient? The services will help more people because of population density. I mean, the math is obvious. I'm not sure what the argument is. Nobody is saying city folk are more important. There are simply more of them.

I've lived in cities - they typically failed to provide better services than lower density suburbs, despite having a bigger tax base and "efficiencies". There are many reasons for this, but cities do not become magically more efficient or well run with more people. Sadly, the opposite is usually true. I think you've bought a bill of goods that a certain group of people are selling, without actually having lived it.

> I've lived in cities - they typically failed to provide better services than lower density suburbs

I think this is an almost uniquely American phenomenon. In most places in the world, the suburbs are where you grudgingly live when you can't afford housing in the city.

Re: Who's Missing from America's Colleges? Rural High School Graduates

#182

Post by fsloth »

throwaway0255 wrote: post #135
vanilla_nut wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand, I come from a rural area and I feel that college was absolutely worth it for me, even with the huge bill that I had to pay myself. (I graduated fairly recently) College was the first time in my life when I feel like I truly took responsibility for myself, and people generally thought I was a responsible kid growing up. I finally found myself in a place where I could make friends who shared interest…

> It's important to keep in mind that college is meant to enrich people as individuals, not explicitly prepare them for jobs. Technical/vocational schools are for job prep. The more college is shown to be failing the job market, the more I hear this argument. Are people who don't go to college less enriched individuals? Lately, academics seem to be shifting their value proposition to the instillation of this undetect…

Maybe the X-factor is simply that having more stimulating experiences and environments makes us more enriched as individuals? I.e, instead of life experiences consisting of three parts - toddler, school , work for 50 years, one gets to add a fourth component and another identity building phaze between school and work. I could believe that.

Although, with this argumentation, one could simply change university with some other novel experience, like military service.

Re: Who's Missing from America's Colleges? Rural High School Graduates

#183

Post by bjelkeman-again »

throwaway0255 wrote: post #135
vanilla_nut wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand, I come from a rural area and I feel that college was absolutely worth it for me, even with the huge bill that I had to pay myself. (I graduated fairly recently) College was the first time in my life when I feel like I truly took responsibility for myself, and people generally thought I was a responsible kid growing up. I finally found myself in a place where I could make friends who shared interest…

> It's important to keep in mind that college is meant to enrich people as individuals, not explicitly prepare them for jobs. Technical/vocational schools are for job prep. The more college is shown to be failing the job market, the more I hear this argument. Are people who don't go to college less enriched individuals? Lately, academics seem to be shifting their value proposition to the instillation of this undetect…

I switched sector I work in, from generic IT/web to working in applying these tool in a specific sector; water/agriculture in international development. I don’t think I could have started the organisation I now run without going back to university. It was hugely beneficial to me to have the right terminology and understanding of the subject matter I am now working with.

Re: Who's Missing from America's Colleges? Rural High School Graduates

#184

Post by jjeaff »

hermitdev wrote: post #108
bllguo wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for the perspective. And because of things like this, rural folk don't want "our" help. They fall further behind, become more insular and hateful. Self-reinforcing cycle. Solving these problems is extremely important and will likely involve harsh tradeoffs. Unfortunately, in the US it feels like we need some dramatic examples before people will finally accept that tradeoffs are necessary.

Let me preface by: I don't mean to offend, but I think your perception is fundamentally wrong. Rural folk don't want help from your "our" because their situation is different than yours. What works for major metropolitan areas doesn't work for small or rural schools. In an area where likely career paths involve working on or inheriting the family farm or ranch, more urban-centric curricula don't make sense. It's not…

Since you mentioned having a gun, this is one of the huge differences between your average liberal elite and the average rural dweller.

People on the left simply don't understand the difference of living on your own. The independence is completely at a different level. You may very well need a gun to fend off some crazy banging at your door that won't go away. In the city, you have the assumption that the cops will swoop in when you call 911 (albeit a very mistaken assumption).

There is a lot of pundit handwaving going on right now saying that it's all just money that keeps gun laws from being passed, but people forget where the NRA gets its money. It's from individuals (and for the PAC, they don't even allow corporate donations).

There are lots of people that truly see any gun laws as government overreach from a bunch of politicians who are usually flanked on both sides with gun toting body guards.

Well, sorry for that tangent.

Re: Who's Missing from America's Colleges? Rural High School Graduates

#185

Post by Animats »

Overall, 59 percent of rural high school grads — white and nonwhite, at every income level — go to college the subsequent fall. That's a lower proportion than the 62 percent of urban and 67 percent of suburban graduates...

That's not a huge difference.

Re: Who's Missing from America's Colleges? Rural High School Graduates

#186

Post by zdragnar »

jacobolus wrote: post #157
zdragnar wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A friend of mine chose the college we went to specifically because she was told about all the need-based financial aid that's available to students like her. You know, the kind that grew up learning to pick the mold off the bread and how awful government cheese was. Imagine her surprise when there's no such thing as a free ride, and there wasn't actually so much available. Also, if you think there's enough "elite" un…

At the top schools, students from that background pay zero in tuition or room & board, and get a small stipend to help pay for textbooks and living expenses. (Source: based on my mother’s solidly middle class elementary school teacher salary, my college ended up being free the last 2 years circa 2010, and I had a roommate who was from a working class background and had a free ride + a stipend, based entirely on need-…

> I imagine if travel expenses are a severe hardship, the college can probably figure out a way to help.

In the case of my friend, your imagination did not line up with her reality. She managed to figure it out, but is saddled with a debt that will wipe out any gains it has gotten her for years to come.

Re: Who's Missing from America's Colleges? Rural High School Graduates

#187

Post by zdragnar »

jonathankoren wrote: post #166
zdragnar wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not even just the utility of the degree, it's the cost. Investing $20-100k plus four to 8 years lost work experience (depending on number of degrees) is, for most living in rural communities, an extreme luxury. Considering the economic gap between metropolitan areas and rural communities, pretty much any degree not directly related to work preparation and placement is a luxury good that few can afford.

The economic adversary is often greatly mitigated by federal Pell Grants[0] and similar state level programs, especially when the student attends a junior college for the first two years. As the article pointed out, the difference isn't academic, or even really economics, it's cultural. It's the attitude that college is for muckity mucks, and just a place to get brainwashed, along with "My dad didn't college, and he…

I didn't qualify for any grants, though my parents didn't have disposable income to help. I just got loans. My friend was in a similar situation. Fortunately for me, I got a nice gig as a developer; I lost touch with her and don't really know what happened, though I suspect she's going to be saddled with debt which will wipe out any gains a degree has gotten her for years to come.

The nearest state school to me currently estimates the total cost of attending, per year, to be roughly $30k (counting books, living expenses, etc.). That adds up to $120,000 in loans for a 4 year degree, less any grants or other forms of aid, which may or may not actually help you get a job.

For many people, a two year technical degree to work towards a career as an air traffic controller, EE tech, computer / network programmer, electrician, plumber, mechanic, welder, floor manager, med tech, paralegal, HVAC tech, landscaping, construction, dental hygenist, hospitality, florist, crop specialist, registered nurse, and so on, all making close to or over the national average income, makes quite a bit of sense.

Re: Who's Missing from America's Colleges? Rural High School Graduates

#188

Post by hrktb »

throwaway0255 wrote: post #135
vanilla_nut wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand, I come from a rural area and I feel that college was absolutely worth it for me, even with the huge bill that I had to pay myself. (I graduated fairly recently) College was the first time in my life when I feel like I truly took responsibility for myself, and people generally thought I was a responsible kid growing up. I finally found myself in a place where I could make friends who shared interest…

> It's important to keep in mind that college is meant to enrich people as individuals, not explicitly prepare them for jobs. Technical/vocational schools are for job prep. The more college is shown to be failing the job market, the more I hear this argument. Are people who don't go to college less enriched individuals? Lately, academics seem to be shifting their value proposition to the instillation of this undetect…

> Lately, academics seem to be shifting their value proposition to the instillation of this undetectable unmeasurable X-factor. We can't see it, we can't prove that it exists, but it's there, and its value is absolutely incalculable. How convenient for the sales pitch is this.

The cost of college forces some people to also argument for better revenue opportunities and better fit for future jobs, because otherwise burning through ungodly amounts of money just to be a better rounded person would be a hard sell.

In countries where university are cheaper nobody bats an eye at someone going through the cycles just for the sake of it, purely to learn interesting things.

Re: Who's Missing from America's Colleges? Rural High School Graduates

#189

Post by jacobolus »

zdragnar wrote: post #186
jacobolus wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At the top schools, students from that background pay zero in tuition or room & board, and get a small stipend to help pay for textbooks and living expenses. (Source: based on my mother’s solidly middle class elementary school teacher salary, my college ended up being free the last 2 years circa 2010, and I had a roommate who was from a working class background and had a free ride + a stipend, based entirely on need-…

> I imagine if travel expenses are a severe hardship, the college can probably figure out a way to help. In the case of my friend, your imagination did not line up with her reality. She managed to figure it out, but is saddled with a debt that will wipe out any gains it has gotten her for years to come.

Travel expenses can’t be more than a thousand bucks per term at the very extreme. For me flying across country cost a couple hundred bucks round trip twice a year. The median new college grad today makes about $50k right out of school, and more after a few years of experience.

What college did your friend go to where she was promised financial aid and then not offered what she expected? What kind of degree did she get (or drop out of) and what is she doing now? How many years of debt are we talking about? Are you sure the bulk of it is due to travel expenses? That seems prima facie implausible.

I know plenty of people with outrageous amounts of college debt (in the six figures), and have never heard of someone going deep into debt for travel expenses. (For comparison room & board + tuition is typically $50k+ per year, which is like 30–100 times larger than I would expect travel expenses to be.)

Re: Who's Missing from America's Colleges? Rural High School Graduates

#190

Post by mozumder »

throwawayfjk wrote: post #178
jacobolus wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you quote the part that you feel is condescending? The text of the article seems largely straightforward and factual to me. It doesn’t say that there’s anything inherently bad about not going to college, but rather that not having a college degree has made it difficult for some people to find new careers in places where many types of labor are facing declining demand because of large structural forces, and that t…

I would assume that the rural are rational to the same degree as anyone else, so the statistical difference mostly means they find college less beneficial relative to their opportunities. There is too much of an agenda feel to this piece, from the title to selective interviews and statistics

> I would assume that the rural are rational to the same degree as anyone else,

The rural have limited social interaction, leading to a biased worldview.

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