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Taiwan ban single-use plastic straws, plastic bags, disposable utensils by 2030

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Re: Taiwan ban single-use plastic straws, plastic bags, disposable utensils by 2030

#241

Post by AgentME »

monk_e_boy wrote: post #203
wastedhours wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anecdata, but since it was introduced, I've gone from getting a new bag every day (lunch/fresh groceries), to using the same one for pretty much the last 6 months. It was a very noticeable shift to making me think about their use. Buying one because I've forgotten is a rare, and slight annoyance (the price doesn't put me off, it just changes the mental model).

Lots of my friends have said the same thing. I've always wondered why people didn't re-use bags before the charge... Saving the environment didn't matter, but 5p does? People didn't know plastic was bad before? They didn't care? It's great that the 5p charge works, but do we need to have a 5p charge on every bit of plastic to drive the point home?

I think there may be a degree of thinking like "if this really were a problem, then the costs would be visible or pushed down to me by now", and then the 5p charge (and the routinely-forced conversation with the cashier) was finally that.

Re: Taiwan ban single-use plastic straws, plastic bags, disposable utensils by 2030

#242

Post by viggity »

okreallywtf wrote: post #225

Just to play devils advocate on this, this isn't very free market. How is this not clearly choosing winners and losers? What about the plastic bag producing companies and their shareholders? The government is choosing multi-use bag makers over single use bag makers. I feel like this is "common sense" enough that people don't fight it, but if it is a more complex (and more important) issue like climate change and bann…

what is the environmental cost of staying in the hospital? Coliform bacteria are found in half of reusable bags and E. Coli are found in 12%.

Reusable bags weigh 40-50 grams, one time use bags are 6 grams. I'm for finding bio-degradable plastic replacements, not because they take up landfill space (who cares, landfills are very safe), but more for the bags/plastics that don't find their way to the landfill.

Re: Taiwan ban single-use plastic straws, plastic bags, disposable utensils by 2030

#243

Post by dahart »

driverdan wrote: post #199
dahart wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know, but I think C02 isn't the primary concern. Petroleum usage and plastic waste are greater concerns. And if you're worried about the air, note that plastic manufacturing produces considerably more toxic gases than steel production. Considering how many vehicles and buildings are built with steel on this planet, I'd bet that the volume of steel needed to provide every person on earth with a steel straw onc…

> but I think C02 isn't the primary concern. Petroleum usage and plastic waste are greater concerns. CO2 is the primary concern. Storing waste is not a problem in most parts of the world. The amount of steel it would require isn't important. What's important is how much energy it takes to make that straw and the other environmental impacts of doing so. It takes magnitudes more energy to melt steel than it does to mel…

> The best option is to stop using straws.

Hey, I completely agree with you there!

> CO2 is the primary concern.

Why?

> Storing waste is not a problem in most parts of the world.

I didn't say anything about storage space. Storage of waste isn't even close to the primary reason to avoid plastic waste.

> The amount of steel it would require isn't important.

It absolutely is, even if you only care about CO2. This statement contradicts other things you said. You can only make claims about one being better if you compare how much it takes to produce.

I'm trying to find sources on tons of CO2 emissions per ton of plastic & steel, and as a non-expert using Google, it's hard to pinpoint. But I get the feeling that metals are 2-3x the CO2 emissions of plastic. A steel straw would be much heavier than a plastic one, so based on this guesstimation, I'd expect CO2 parity for 1 steel straw to be somewhere in the neighborhood of 20 plastic straws. If I'm anywhere close to accurate, that doesn't seem like it takes very long to beat plastic on CO2.

If you think I'm wrong, you'll have to demonstrate it by showing how much steel it would require...

> What's important is how much energy it takes

I don't buy that blanket generalization. Energy is a highly debatable potentially misleading issue, and doesn't necessarily have a high impact on C02, if renewable energy sources are used like hydro & solar. We might be emitting CO2 by burning coal today, but we don't have to burn coal in the future.

> You also need to factor in the energy and water it takes to clean the straw and the likelihood of damaging or losing it over that time.

Sure, fine. That changes the average life of the straw. Let's say it's 1 year instead of 10. For someone who uses one straw per day at lunch only on work days, we'd have to compare the carbon footprint of 1 steel straw to about 260 plastic straws. Even for CO2 emissions, the disposable ones are at a pretty severe disadvantage any way you look at it.

Re: Taiwan ban single-use plastic straws, plastic bags, disposable utensils by 2030

#244

Post by DoreenMichele »

okreallywtf wrote: post #237
DoreenMichele wrote: post #229

I hate seeing these extremist bans. I was homeless in California when the bag ban went into effect. Following hot on the heels of the bag ban a hepatitis epidemic broke out in Southern California. I believe these two things are related. I have a permanently compromised immune system. Reusing bags is problematic for me. However, I use grocery bags as trash bags. I almost never buy trash bags. This has basically been t…

First, are you seriously suggesting that they were popular for the reasons that you personally prefer them? Second, even if it did cause an outbreak what does that tell us about how endemic hepatitis was already? Is that not an issue already that it was all around us such that simply changing the habits of our shopping bags could cause this problem? It sounds like there is a deeper issue that needs to be addressed. I…

First, are you seriously suggesting

This is not good faith engagement.

Second, even if it did cause an outbreak

I didn't say it caused an outbreak. I believe there are likely multiple contributing factors. But the epidemic disproportionately impacts the homeless population. For homeless people, paying 10 cents a bag is a serious hardship. Bags go from being a free courtesy item that enhances their life to yet another financial burden when money is already a serious problem. There are multiple factors that then make bags a potential vector for disease for the homeless.

The bag ban in California is aimed at injecting a facade of sustainability into the upper class lives of people who have no plans to give up their cars and big houses. It puts a big burden on people who lack either a car or a home or both. It is the people walking or taking public transit who most need a bag to carry their stuff. But, no, the US has no plans to improve public transit.

The only thing I am suggesting is that the discussion should be more nuanced. I see no reason why such a suggestion ought to be dismissed as unreasonable.

Re: Taiwan ban single-use plastic straws, plastic bags, disposable utensils by 2030

#245

Post by makecheck »

antognini wrote: post #129
makecheck wrote: post #115

Drinks taste better without straws anyway, and you can be satisfied with a lot less by sipping directly. I was amazed how easily I could gulp down some 32 oz. drink with a straw but when opening the lid and sipping I could be perfectly happy with a tiny coffee-cup size.

I don't like straws myself, but they are better for your teeth since most beverages are acidic and the straw allows the liquid to bypass your teeth.

Unlikely; in over 40 years I have zero cavities.

Re: Taiwan ban single-use plastic straws, plastic bags, disposable utensils by 2030

#246

Post by kodablah »

tpm wrote: post #235
kodablah wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't disagree with anything you wrote nor do I see how it contradicts anything I wrote. Just because it works doesn't make it right and running to the government and using the long arm of the law IMO should be reserved for egregious crimes lest it become regressive and commonplace.

So, what would be the correct course of action to prevent stuff like fish in the sea being full of plastic from happening?

This is the type of dangerous question that leads to interminable lists of laws. If there is any problem and we don't know of another solution that works as well, let's go with the one we do know. It also happens to be the easiest and we know it will work. One wonders why the same solution doesn't apply to paper that is also a serious littering problem? And it's always this same type of appeal to emotion. If you cared about the fish so much, why not just outlaw all plastics? Answer: because people only care about things as much as it doesn't affect them to solve. That's how regressive laws happen.

I could put forth a guess or two on attempts at action, but I am not familiar enough with the science to argue them wholeheartedly. But I can say the political decisions are rarely science based and more often based on perceived righteousness (which is why it's a tax and not illegal).

Re: Taiwan ban single-use plastic straws, plastic bags, disposable utensils by 2030

#247

Post by aleyan »

briandear wrote: post #141
skrause wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, other developed countries don't have so many homeless people, so that should be less of a problem there.

> other developed countries don't have so many homeless people Not true. Here are per-night homeless statistics from UN: China has 2.6 million Russia has 5 million Ukraine 1 million Germany 860,000 US has 554,000 ... But more profoundely, by homeless ratio, the US is not even close. Germany, New Zealand, Czech Republic, Canada, the UK, Australia, Sweden, Luxembourg, Croatia, Bosnia, Russia, Peru France, Austria, the…

Can you please link to "per-night homeless statistics from UN" source that you mentioned? I can't not find it through a little googling.

5 million figure for Russia for example appears on wikipedia [1] where it is cited from IB Times[2]. IB Times[2] cites Homeless World Cup[3] as the source. Homeless World Cup[3] cites the original IB Times[2] article as the source for the 5 million number! This was the first number I investigated and it already seems super suspect.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_homeless_... [2] http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/homeless-day-2014-new-york-manila-a... [3] https://homelessworldcup.org/homelessness-statistics/

Re: Taiwan ban single-use plastic straws, plastic bags, disposable utensils by 2030

#248

Post by emodendroket »

ksk wrote: post #181
oldcynic wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Put companies out of business that produce or import said goods Tough. Don't go into business ruining the environment. Similar closures would have happened in asbestos, coal, tetraethyl lead additives and plenty of other things we've discovered are a very bad idea. > Reducing availability and increasing cost of medical goods That's quite a leap - do you have a source? Scotland is banning all plastic straws from end…

That applies to computers and all of the other un-repairable ewaste generating electronics. All purchases of smartphones, laptops, in fact pretty much all of bestbuy would fall in that category. Can we get a ban on those too? https://ifixit.org/ewaste

I'd argue that disposable bags, disposable straws, disposable chopsticks, and the like are in a different category because there is a ready alternative which is not particularly onerous to use.

Re: Taiwan ban single-use plastic straws, plastic bags, disposable utensils by 2030

#249

Post by [deleted] »

kentosi wrote: post #131
technofiend wrote: post #10

The UK dropped to 500 million bags annually used from 7 billion after introduction of a 5 pence per bag charge. That's just one country albeit one of the world's largest. Still I think we're over due for much more agressive action. https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/jul/30/england-...

Meanwhile when I moved here in New York I was shocked at the common practice of "double bagging" where they literally put a plastic bag into another plastic bag. The argument being that 1 bag isn't strong enough.

[deleted]

Re: Taiwan ban single-use plastic straws, plastic bags, disposable utensils by 2030

#250

Post by emodendroket »

erispoe wrote: post #43
randomerr wrote: post #8

The Law of Unintended Consequences will: * Put companies out of business that produce or import said goods * Reducing availability and increasing cost of medical goods that use plastic because the aforementioned companies no longer exist or are importing products * Put pressure on manufactures to use alternate materials (bamboo and glass most likely) causing shortages and rising cost This in the long run is going to…

> Soda Tax in New York that made people go to New Jersey: > https://nypost.com/2014/06/26/highest-court-in-ny-refuses-to... . This article doesn't say that. How many people would pay a toll/transit fare and spend an hour on the road both way to get a larger soda?

Indeed, the words "New Jersey" do not even occur in that article.

It's not clear why someone who really, really wanted more than 16 oz. of soda could not simply order two, if they want it so much they're willing to consider traveling to New Jersey. Or for that matter just go to the store and buy a 2 liter bottle of soda.

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