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Taiwan ban single-use plastic straws, plastic bags, disposable utensils by 2030

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Re: Taiwan ban single-use plastic straws, plastic bags, disposable utensils by 2030

#111

Post by dahart »

mbid wrote: post #31
rubenbe wrote: post #6

I recently bought a set of reusable stainless steel straws. They were expensive, but have a timeless "design" and have a build quality that gives the impression they will last a lifetime. When dirty I throw them in the dishwasher with the other cutleries. They don't take any space in the washer so cleaning them is essentially "free". (Making abstraction of the ecological cost of a dishwasher.)

Honest question: How many plastic straws do you have to save to offset the CO2 cost of building a steel straw? Also, are paper straws really better, CO2-wise?

I don't know, but I think C02 isn't the primary concern. Petroleum usage and plastic waste are greater concerns. And if you're worried about the air, note that plastic manufacturing produces considerably more toxic gases than steel production.

Considering how many vehicles and buildings are built with steel on this planet, I'd bet that the volume of steel needed to provide every person on earth with a steel straw once wouldn't even be noticed by the steel producers.

Actually, I just took a few minutes to look a couple things up and did the math. The US today likely recycles more than 6M tons of steel every year (it was 5.8M and rising in 2014), and a ton of steel can produce around 40K straws, if I divide one ton by the weight of a steel straw I saw on Amazon. This means we could produce steel straws for all on earth with about 200K tons of recycled steel, or less than 4% of the steel we're recycling every year in the US alone.

Note the steel industry and the EPA have somewhat different numbers for amount of recycling, it may be due to US vs global recycling, but I went with the EPA's which is more conservative.

I don't know about Taiwan, but note that metal recycling in the US is currently twice the weight of metal recycling, and plastic is twice the weight of land filling compared to metal; in other words plastic is a much larger problem.

https://archive.epa.gov/epawaste/nonhaz/municipal/web/html/

https://www.epa.gov/sites/production/files/2016-11/documents...

https://www.steel.org/~/media/Files/AISI/Fact%20Sheets/50_Fu...

With these things in mind, I'd personally be pretty surprised if a steel straw that lasts 10 years wasn't environmentally better (and by more than a little) on all scales than plastic straws for someone who drinks a soda with a straw every day for lunch.

Re: Taiwan ban single-use plastic straws, plastic bags, disposable utensils by 2030

#112

Post by kristofferR »

mattmanser wrote: post #62
toomanybeersies wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well apparently a 5p charge resulted in a 14x decrease in usage of plastic bags, so despite your anecdote, it does make a difference.

A little thing to bear in mind is that the new bags weigh significantly more than the old ones, so it's not actually a 14x decrease. With the switch all the stores now sell "lifetime" bags. According to my fairly inaccurate kitchen scales the old ones weigh about 10g, the new ones weigh about 25g. So it's about a 5.6x drop, which is still fantastic. I think everyone talks about the number of bags as it makes the decr…

In Norway we went the other way - our grocery bags are so thick and sturdy that they're reused as garbage bags for 95%+ of households instead of garbage bags. Our garbage looks like this (the blue bags are free government provided bags for plastic recycling): https://i.imgur.com/WbAsG3y.jpg

Environmental organizations here actually complained about the plastic bag tax because they feared it would lead to people buying garbage bag rolls instead of reusing the grocery bags for their garbage.

Anecdotally I'd say it also makes our garbage system "less messy" than systems that depends on bigger thrash bags - a hole in a large flimsy thrash bag is more likely and has a bigger negative effect than one in a small sturdy one.

Re: Taiwan ban single-use plastic straws, plastic bags, disposable utensils by 2030

#113

Post by jamesrcole »

Does anyone know of a deeply-argued argument against the use of plastics like these?

Don't take this question as meaning that I believe such an argument doesn't exist, or that I think they shouldn't be banned. I'm currently agnostic on the matter, because I don't feel I know enough about it.

I tend to only hear shallowly-argued reasons for banning these things (which doesn't mean their conclusions are wrong).

Re: Taiwan ban single-use plastic straws, plastic bags, disposable utensils by 2030

#114

Post by qbrass »

PakG1 wrote: post #66
ChrisRR wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tesco used biodegradable bags but they weren't lasting long compared to the original bags. They couldn't be used for much because they started falling apart within weeks.

At least they're biodegradable though? Plastic isn't really.

Plastic breaks down in oxygen and UV light. The problem is people keep burying them.

Re: Taiwan ban single-use plastic straws, plastic bags, disposable utensils by 2030

#115

Post by makecheck »

Drinks taste better without straws anyway, and you can be satisfied with a lot less by sipping directly. I was amazed how easily I could gulp down some 32 oz. drink with a straw but when opening the lid and sipping I could be perfectly happy with a tiny coffee-cup size.

Re: Taiwan ban single-use plastic straws, plastic bags, disposable utensils by 2030

#116

Post by picodguyo »

jamesrcole wrote: post #113

Does anyone know of a deeply-argued argument against the use of plastics like these? Don't take this question as meaning that I believe such an argument doesn't exist, or that I think they shouldn't be banned. I'm currently agnostic on the matter, because I don't feel I know enough about it. I tend to only hear shallowly-argued reasons for banning these things (which doesn't mean their conclusions are wrong).

Plastics are polluting and poisoning the oceans:

https://www.ft.com/content/30b30b1e-004a-11e8-9650-9c0ad2d7c...

Re: Taiwan ban single-use plastic straws, plastic bags, disposable utensils by 2030

#117

Post by mcbits »

emodendroket wrote: post #98
wiz21c wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

water is not the problem. Electricity is. and besides, not everything go in the dish washer. And moreover some the dish washer soap can attack the surface of many things => increasing the need to replace those things...

I think people in California, Cape Town, or various similar locales might disagree with the idea that conserving water is unimportant. How much electricity does a dishwasher really use, anyway?

About 1-2 kWh and 4-6 gallons of water per use.

Re: Taiwan ban single-use plastic straws, plastic bags, disposable utensils by 2030

#118

Post by maym86 »

darkstar999 wrote: post #77
adamio wrote: post #64

There's claims the plastic ban bag in San Diego led to a Hepatitis outbreak https://www.sandiegoreader.com/news/2017/sep/08/stringers-pl...

If that's true, it would still be a lot less plastic if we gave free access to the homeless population.

Or just access to toilets. It's not like they want to poop in bags.

Re: Taiwan ban single-use plastic straws, plastic bags, disposable utensils by 2030

#119

Post by mturmon »

oldcynic wrote: post #37
Fifer82 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have about 20 pound worth of bags in the cupboard gathering dust, 5p doesn't make a difference. They should make it £1 in the UK from now and £5 from 2020. That will make a dent. 2030 is the same as saying "Lets kick the can down the road".

That's broadly where I'd go with plastic bottles - £1 deposit, rising to £5 and compel supermarkets and manufacturers to take the returns. I'm old enough to remember the 20p(?) deposit on glass bottles of fizzy pop. Also when supermarkets were selling milk in glass bottles - and provided crates in the same section for customers to return the empties. This used to be a solved problem.

This approach is used in California and other states and it generally works. The deposit is 5 cents and certain "healthy" drinks (juices, milk) are not charged. [If you live in CA, know all this, and are just arguing for a much higher fee - my apologies.]

Most middle-class people don't take household bottles in for the 5c back -- they recycle them in bulk for free -- but bottles in public areas are scooped up by poorer people.

Also, some people game the system in various ways, like importing out-of-state cans for the return value, or other types of fraud, which can be abetted by shady recycling firms.

So basically, a micro-economy was created with all its attendant functional and not-so-functional aspects. But the basic problem of roadside litter was largely solved.

Re: Taiwan ban single-use plastic straws, plastic bags, disposable utensils by 2030

#120

Post by johnhenry »

Fifer82 wrote: post #26
technofiend wrote: post #10

The UK dropped to 500 million bags annually used from 7 billion after introduction of a 5 pence per bag charge. That's just one country albeit one of the world's largest. Still I think we're over due for much more agressive action. https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/jul/30/england-...

I have about 20 pound worth of bags in the cupboard gathering dust, 5p doesn't make a difference. They should make it £1 in the UK from now and £5 from 2020. That will make a dent. 2030 is the same as saying "Lets kick the can down the road".

It seems you have a financial interest in this. When you say you have £20 worth of bags, is this at the 5p per bag rate, or at your proposed £1 per bag?
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