Taiwan ban single-use plastic straws, plastic bags, disposable utensils by 2030 • Hacker News Board

Re: Taiwan ban single-use plastic straws, plastic bags, disposable utensils by 2030

#231

Post by sdfasdasfsf » Thu, Feb 22, 2018, 6:18 PM UTC

monk_e_boy wrote: post #216

sdfasdasfsf wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

... we forget. Glad to know you're helping bring down the average though

Do they sell cloth bags in the shops? If shops stopped selling plastic bags people would figure out a solution.

And if social media companies were legislated out of business people would figure out solutions to staying in touch and we'd avoid all the zombies we're creating [1].

But then we cease to be a liberal (as in live and let live) society.

[1] I for one despise being in the company of someone on their phone while we're talking in the same way that others can't seem to forget the plastic tidal pool in the oceans.

I also walk and ride so the addictiveness of social media is literally a mortal danger to me in a way plastic bits aren't

Re: Taiwan ban single-use plastic straws, plastic bags, disposable utensils by 2030

#232

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Feb 22, 2018, 6:18 PM UTC

monk_e_boy wrote: post #203

wastedhours wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anecdata, but since it was introduced, I've gone from getting a new bag every day (lunch/fresh groceries), to using the same one for pretty much the last 6 months. It was a very noticeable shift to making me think about their use. Buying one because I've forgotten is a rare, and slight annoyance (the price doesn't put me off, it just changes the mental model).

Lots of my friends have said the same thing. I've always wondered why people didn't re-use bags before the charge... Saving the environment didn't matter, but 5p does? People didn't know plastic was bad before? They didn't care? It's great that the 5p charge works, but do we need to have a 5p charge on every bit of plastic to drive the point home?

[deleted]

Re: Taiwan ban single-use plastic straws, plastic bags, disposable utensils by 2030

#233

Post by nugi » Thu, Feb 22, 2018, 6:21 PM UTC

DoreenMichele wrote: post #229

I hate seeing these extremist bans. I was homeless in California when the bag ban went into effect. Following hot on the heels of the bag ban a hepatitis epidemic broke out in Southern California. I believe these two things are related. I have a permanently compromised immune system. Reusing bags is problematic for me. However, I use grocery bags as trash bags. I almost never buy trash bags. This has basically been t…

I too, use the ubiquitous plastic bags as trash bags, but I get about 50, for each I use as trash. They are poorly recycled, and I am constantly picking them form my trees in the country. Its a plauge, and needs to stop.

Your point about being extreme is well taken. I think a deposit system is ideal personally.

Re: Taiwan ban single-use plastic straws, plastic bags, disposable utensils by 2030

#234

Post by seanmcdirmid » Thu, Feb 22, 2018, 6:24 PM UTC

ekianjo wrote: post #152

neilni wrote: post #149

Seeing some of comments about price.. just thought I can put more info here since that's where I'm from and some points are not mentioned, especially the previous plastic reduction effort by Taiwan started in 2002. In 2002, the restriction on plastic bags that are thinner than 0.06mm was imposed to all stores, but it was not a complete ban. Stores that offer plastic bags thicker than 0.06mm need to charge customers.…

> You have to purchase government issued garbage bags if you want to throw your garbage out of your house That's the case in many countries - in Japan for example. (not government issued but city-issued or prefecture-issued bags).

Same is definitely true in Zurich, but not the rest of Switzerland.

Re: Taiwan ban single-use plastic straws, plastic bags, disposable utensils by 2030

#235

Post by tpm » Thu, Feb 22, 2018, 6:24 PM UTC

kodablah wrote: post #226

skrebbel wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nonsense. The reason this particular tax works is not because people can't do without the 5p, it's because every conversation with a cashier includes "would you like a 5p bag with that?". In other words, you're forced to consider it every time you buy something. That sort of repetition is powerful for changing habits.

I don't disagree with anything you wrote nor do I see how it contradicts anything I wrote. Just because it works doesn't make it right and running to the government and using the long arm of the law IMO should be reserved for egregious crimes lest it become regressive and commonplace.

So, what would be the correct course of action to prevent stuff like fish in the sea being full of plastic from happening?

Re: Taiwan ban single-use plastic straws, plastic bags, disposable utensils by 2030

#236

Post by nugi » Thu, Feb 22, 2018, 6:24 PM UTC

jws wrote: post #193

undersuit wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the problem with paper straws?

As I recall from my childhood, they get mushy if you dawdle too long with your drink. They also are more prone to collapse if drinking a milkshake and you deform a spot on the side mid-suck.

The newer ones are better, but can still colapse if left in a drink too long.

I never understood straws however. They bypass your tounge, thereby skipping the whole point of a tasty drink, and nobody uses straws for water it seems. It is very strange, and looks vaugely infintile to see an adult suckling in public.

Re: Taiwan ban single-use plastic straws, plastic bags, disposable utensils by 2030

#237

Post by okreallywtf » Thu, Feb 22, 2018, 6:25 PM UTC

DoreenMichele wrote: post #229

I hate seeing these extremist bans. I was homeless in California when the bag ban went into effect. Following hot on the heels of the bag ban a hepatitis epidemic broke out in Southern California. I believe these two things are related. I have a permanently compromised immune system. Reusing bags is problematic for me. However, I use grocery bags as trash bags. I almost never buy trash bags. This has basically been t…

First, are you seriously suggesting that they were popular for the reasons that you personally prefer them?

Second, even if it did cause an outbreak what does that tell us about how endemic hepatitis was already? Is that not an issue already that it was all around us such that simply changing the habits of our shopping bags could cause this problem? It sounds like there is a deeper issue that needs to be addressed.

I'm sympathetic to your particular issues and I hope that there is an acceptable middleground for people with your situation but these seem like some serious edge cases to me. That is not to say that I expect you to have to suffer because you are an "edge case", but I don't see why we can't essentially ban something that is a problem overall while still finding a way to protect your health needs.

Re: Taiwan ban single-use plastic straws, plastic bags, disposable utensils by 2030

#238

Post by gt_ » Thu, Feb 22, 2018, 6:28 PM UTC

hangonhn wrote: post #230

technofiend wrote: post #10

The UK dropped to 500 million bags annually used from 7 billion after introduction of a 5 pence per bag charge. That's just one country albeit one of the world's largest. Still I think we're over due for much more agressive action. https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/jul/30/england-...

I'm one of those idiots who always forgets to bring reusable bags but since they passed similar laws in my city, I've cut down on bag use, sometimes just carrying all my items. Laws like that help because groceries no longer assume you want bags. Now you have to make a decision. So even when I do forget and have to buy a bag, I ask for the bare minimum and the clerk just stack my bag as full as possible. In the past,…

The habit of assuming customers want bags seems like one way to characterize much, of not most, of the problem. I get the impression it’s seen as a common courtesy for some, or a gesture. Maybe nothing more than a habit, maybe less than that.

Re: Taiwan ban single-use plastic straws, plastic bags, disposable utensils by 2030

#239

Post by okreallywtf » Thu, Feb 22, 2018, 6:28 PM UTC

okreallywtf wrote: post #225

Just to play devils advocate on this, this isn't very free market. How is this not clearly choosing winners and losers? What about the plastic bag producing companies and their shareholders? The government is choosing multi-use bag makers over single use bag makers. I feel like this is "common sense" enough that people don't fight it, but if it is a more complex (and more important) issue like climate change and bann…

I'm curious why I'm getting downvoted for this, it seems to be a pretty clear comparison to me.

Re: Taiwan ban single-use plastic straws, plastic bags, disposable utensils by 2030

#240

Post by grinsekatze » Thu, Feb 22, 2018, 6:29 PM UTC

monk_e_boy wrote: post #203

wastedhours wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anecdata, but since it was introduced, I've gone from getting a new bag every day (lunch/fresh groceries), to using the same one for pretty much the last 6 months. It was a very noticeable shift to making me think about their use. Buying one because I've forgotten is a rare, and slight annoyance (the price doesn't put me off, it just changes the mental model).

Lots of my friends have said the same thing. I've always wondered why people didn't re-use bags before the charge... Saving the environment didn't matter, but 5p does? People didn't know plastic was bad before? They didn't care? It's great that the 5p charge works, but do we need to have a 5p charge on every bit of plastic to drive the point home?

> Saving the environment didn't matter, but 5p does? People didn't know plastic was bad before? They didn't care?

i think it simply does not register, until something flips the switch. "money" is a powerful trigger. people pay special attention to what it is connected to.