Why I don't use my real photo when messaging with customers on my website • Hacker News Board

Re: Why I don't use my real photo when messaging with customers on my website

#121

Post by AlexTTT » Fri, Feb 16, 2018, 8:57 AM UTC

jakobegger wrote: post #101

Amazing. The author spends a lot of time to tell us a very convincing story how sexism affects people in our industry, and the Hacker News thread is full of people rationalizing it. - it's only because people think you're a bot - it's because of your target audience - it's because chat widgets are annoying - you don't really have enough data to make any conclusions How much will it take to convince the average HN rea…

"Sexism is actually everywhere" is an extremely strong statement. Such a strong statement requires an extraordinary amount of work (going far beyond mere observations) to be proven.

I personally would be very interested to know why "Julia" is being insulted much more than "Eric", but saying "this is because of sexism" is no better than saying that "the sun is bright because it shines".

Re: Why I don't use my real photo when messaging with customers on my website

#122

Post by donkeyd » Fri, Feb 16, 2018, 8:57 AM UTC

around_here wrote: post #116

jakobegger wrote: post #101

Amazing. The author spends a lot of time to tell us a very convincing story how sexism affects people in our industry, and the Hacker News thread is full of people rationalizing it. - it's only because people think you're a bot - it's because of your target audience - it's because chat widgets are annoying - you don't really have enough data to make any conclusions How much will it take to convince the average HN rea…

Probably quite a bit because this is "private". Most people don't witness these kinds of things off the internet, or run with groups who never do this outside of one-to-ones with mostly disconnected people. I don't dispute her results at all, but I can basically guarantee you that I haven't been around where a woman has said "hi" to someone and they're all "Yea, eff your mom". Only confounding factor I think comes in…

> I haven't been around where a woman has said "hi" to someone and they're all "Yea, eff your mom"

Lucky you, I recently saw this 'interaction' between a guy and a girl on the street:

Guy: Hey cutie!

Guy: Hey sexy!

Guy: Hey girl, come over!

Guy: Hey bitch, come over here.

Guy: Go away you ugly bitch!

The girl just kept walking and the guy turned to more profanities. This wasn't in some shitty part of town, it was at the main station of one of the nicest cities in the Netherlands. It's not just the internet where stuff like this happens.

Re: Why I don't use my real photo when messaging with customers on my website

#123

Post by TheAdamAndChe » Fri, Feb 16, 2018, 8:58 AM UTC

laci27 wrote: post #22

javadocmd wrote: post #13

I think anyone remotely familiar with the internet won't be surprised by these outcomes. Of course the occasional reality check is always good. I wonder to what extent plucky startups expect abuse when they put pop-up chat dialogs in their products. I imagine it's inescapable that some percentage of your user base is going to see it as an invitation to respond poorly. Something door-to-door salespeople and telemarket…

I'm using the net (As a guy) for 20 years now, and I was surprised. This is taking place at an alarming scale. Some parents really missed the mark in teaching their kids basic human manners, and I'm not even talking about the golden rule...

I am really curious. You say you have used the net for 20 years now, so how can you be surprised about this? Have you not exposed yourself to other anonymous forums? They're all filled with vitriol and disrespect.

Re: Why I don't use my real photo when messaging with customers on my website

#124

Post by guy98238710 » Fri, Feb 16, 2018, 8:58 AM UTC

jakobegger wrote: post #101

Amazing. The author spends a lot of time to tell us a very convincing story how sexism affects people in our industry, and the Hacker News thread is full of people rationalizing it. - it's only because people think you're a bot - it's because of your target audience - it's because chat widgets are annoying - you don't really have enough data to make any conclusions How much will it take to convince the average HN rea…

Sexism might be everywhere (going both ways), but this particular case likely isn't sexism. Even if it is, it's not clear whether this is sexism against women or against men (programmers in particular) assumed to be hiding behind pretty woman's photo.

Re: Why I don't use my real photo when messaging with customers on my website

#125

Post by TaylorAlexander » Fri, Feb 16, 2018, 8:58 AM UTC

around_here wrote: post #116

jakobegger wrote: post #101

Amazing. The author spends a lot of time to tell us a very convincing story how sexism affects people in our industry, and the Hacker News thread is full of people rationalizing it. - it's only because people think you're a bot - it's because of your target audience - it's because chat widgets are annoying - you don't really have enough data to make any conclusions How much will it take to convince the average HN rea…

Probably quite a bit because this is "private". Most people don't witness these kinds of things off the internet, or run with groups who never do this outside of one-to-ones with mostly disconnected people. I don't dispute her results at all, but I can basically guarantee you that I haven't been around where a woman has said "hi" to someone and they're all "Yea, eff your mom". Only confounding factor I think comes in…

Sure, people think it’s a bot. But what is happening in their brain that makes them so much more likely to be nasty when the chat program looks like a woman? If it’s just because they think it’s a bot, why does gender appear to be so significant?

Re: Why I don't use my real photo when messaging with customers on my website

#126

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Feb 16, 2018, 8:59 AM UTC

jakobegger wrote: post #101

Amazing. The author spends a lot of time to tell us a very convincing story how sexism affects people in our industry, and the Hacker News thread is full of people rationalizing it. - it's only because people think you're a bot - it's because of your target audience - it's because chat widgets are annoying - you don't really have enough data to make any conclusions How much will it take to convince the average HN rea…

[deleted]

Re: Why I don't use my real photo when messaging with customers on my website

#127

Post by MarinReiter » Fri, Feb 16, 2018, 9:01 AM UTC

b6 wrote: post #55

tomlock wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>A guy would just laugh at those "mean" comments. >People love women What are these statements based on? Meanwhile, the vast majority of domestic violence victims, and the victims of murders where the assailant was in a relationship with the murderer, are women. This idea that "people love women" is not reality based. Plenty of men have spoken out about how toxic and awful online culture can be. It's not too hard to…

> What are these statements based on? I have personally laughed at comments much worse than those in the post, directed at me, and so have my friends. All my male friends and my dad and my friends' dads and so forth love women -- they would die for women. What I'm trying to say is, people bring out this word "misogyny" to make a claim about the origin of a problem, when the origin is unclear, or at least much more co…

Wew lad, I can't believe I'm saying this, but you either don't understand women or don't understand love.

Women dont want you to die for them. That's your own need for chivalrious purpose, you selfishly romanticizing your own (or your male friends') sacrifice. I dont know if you've ever had someone sacrificing themselves for you, but lemme tell you first hand, it's not nice, and it makes you feel like shit. Women, and everyone for that matter, are adults, so they don't need someone sacrificing themselves for them. Why would you die for someone, when that person is capable of complete independance? The "love you to death" love isn't really love, it's obsession, and it's unhealthy. And it's either "women are an easy target for trolling" or "people love women". I dont know what kind of twisted love makes you harass your object of desire online.

I can think of a million different ways to harass Eric. Everyday men are also harassed online, usually for not being "masculine" enough. So why are people more likely to harass Julia or Rachel and not Eric?

Re: Why I don't use my real photo when messaging with customers on my website

#128

Post by TaylorAlexander » Fri, Feb 16, 2018, 9:02 AM UTC

donkeyd wrote: post #122

around_here wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably quite a bit because this is "private". Most people don't witness these kinds of things off the internet, or run with groups who never do this outside of one-to-ones with mostly disconnected people. I don't dispute her results at all, but I can basically guarantee you that I haven't been around where a woman has said "hi" to someone and they're all "Yea, eff your mom". Only confounding factor I think comes in…

> I haven't been around where a woman has said "hi" to someone and they're all "Yea, eff your mom" Lucky you, I recently saw this 'interaction' between a guy and a girl on the street: Guy: Hey cutie! Guy: Hey sexy! Guy: Hey girl, come over! Guy: Hey bitch, come over here. Guy: Go away you ugly bitch! The girl just kept walking and the guy turned to more profanities. This wasn't in some shitty part of town, it was at…

I’ve heard that before. Guys will get aggressive if a woman ignores them. I don’t get it and it’s sketchy as hell. It shows how superficial so many guys can be - they want to sound sweet until it’s clear they’re not getting anything, and then they become aggressive. It’s always about their satisfaction - they reveal that they were not being nice in order for the woman to feel better, or they wouldn’t have turned aggressive.

Obviously it should be clear that I’m not talking about all men, but I have seen this behavior on occasion before and it’s super unnerving.

Re: Why I don't use my real photo when messaging with customers on my website

#129

Post by guy98238710 » Fri, Feb 16, 2018, 9:04 AM UTC

donkeyd wrote: post #122

around_here wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably quite a bit because this is "private". Most people don't witness these kinds of things off the internet, or run with groups who never do this outside of one-to-ones with mostly disconnected people. I don't dispute her results at all, but I can basically guarantee you that I haven't been around where a woman has said "hi" to someone and they're all "Yea, eff your mom". Only confounding factor I think comes in…

> I haven't been around where a woman has said "hi" to someone and they're all "Yea, eff your mom" Lucky you, I recently saw this 'interaction' between a guy and a girl on the street: Guy: Hey cutie! Guy: Hey sexy! Guy: Hey girl, come over! Guy: Hey bitch, come over here. Guy: Go away you ugly bitch! The girl just kept walking and the guy turned to more profanities. This wasn't in some shitty part of town, it was at…

It's very different. The guy on the street actually wanted the girl. These people on the internet don't want anyone. They just want a victim for abuse. The annoying chatbox just gives them an excuse to vent off.

Re: Why I don't use my real photo when messaging with customers on my website

#130

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Feb 16, 2018, 9:04 AM UTC

red_admiral wrote: post #83

dazc wrote: post #14

These chat messenger pop-ups can be quite annoying, the example on the site mentioned is typically 'in your face'. What's particularly frustrating with this one is that there is already a prominent speech bubble icon in the corner of the screen that suggests they have a chat feature - if I want it. It doesn't need to crack open after a second and slap me. I am not defending the obvious misogyny here but I think an ex…

This is basically an A/B test, admittedly on a moderate sample size but the point Julia is making is that the amount of abuse differed depending on the gender of the name and photo. All other variables, such as "annoyingness factor of having a pop-up chat box", were the same in all cases. Even if the abuse were partly caused by the chat box popping up annoyingly, one could still conclude that a chat box popping up wi…

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