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FBI Says Chinese Operatives Active at Scores of U.S. Universities

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Re: FBI Says Chinese Operatives Active at Scores of U.S. Universities

#151

Post by bjourne »

davesque wrote: post #108

Honestly, is this news? Is it anything new that there are people roaming around university campuses that intend to make inroads into young, impressionable minds? When I was at university, I remember there was an organization called "Horizons" which would show up to a number of social events and invite people to their building located near campus for free dinner. Of course, they were a Christian organization and were…

It's news because it's all allegations with no evidence. Tfa says there are several hundred thousand Chinese students in the US. Not a single one has been shown to be a Chinese operative.

Re: FBI Says Chinese Operatives Active at Scores of U.S. Universities

#152

Post by gowld »

ilamont wrote: post #61

The Chinese government has been very aggressive when it comes to media in foreign countries. Via Foreign Policy ( http://foreignpolicy.com/2017/12/21/one-of-americas-biggest-... ): In recent years, and especially since Xi became president in 2012, the Chinese government has sought various ways to increase its influence over China’s 40 million-strong diaspora. The Overseas Chinese Affairs Office, a ministry specifical…

How deep does the rabbit hole go... The Atlantic runs an expose on WaPo's China Daily advertorials, meanwhile The Atlantic runs Scientology advertorial

https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2013/01/the-sci...

Re: FBI Says Chinese Operatives Active at Scores of U.S. Universities

#153

Post by gowld »

meowface wrote: post #31
IntronExon wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with the general principle you’re describing, it I’m unconvinced that it applies in this case. Do you see what I mean? How does this warning empower the public?

Perhaps if you're a researcher at a university and you get an interesting business offer out of the blue in exchange for access to something (maybe data you've gathered), you may be a bit more wary and consider if you're being manipulated by another government's intelligence service.

Why do I care precisely who is manipulating me?

Re: FBI Says Chinese Operatives Active at Scores of U.S. Universities

#154

Post by tptacek »

This isn't a new controversy, for what it's worth. For example:

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2014/04/29/chicago-facul...

One way to summarize: colleges accept Chinese-sponsored Confucius Institutes as a way of bolstering Chinese language programs, which are valuable in the marketplace. But if you let China fund your Chinese language programs, the instructors you end up with will to some extent suppress discussion of politically-sensitive topics. And, of course, college staff probably also see this as a labor dispute: colleges that accept CI-sponsorship are in a sense outsourcing the work of professors.

Re: FBI Says Chinese Operatives Active at Scores of U.S. Universities

#155

Post by logfromblammo »

ilaksh wrote: post #78

Personally I think some Mandarin should become compulsory in the US because I think basic lack of communication is the greatest security risk. The biggest problem to me is the Chinese suppression of dissent and overcentralization. And since there are so many Chinese people it seems almost inevitable that these tendencies will encroach upon or at least rub off on the US. I assume at this point most universities realiz…

I got about six weeks of Mandarin in middle school. Not enough teachers are available to offer it in most high schools. If you wanted to really learn a second language before university, it was either French or Spanish. Like a chump, I chose French, because the teacher was reputed to give out less homework than the Spanish teacher. I've never even been to Quebec or Haiti. Quelle dommage; ce n'est pas trop utile pour moi. Tant pis. I can't even remember all the conjugations and tenses for etre.

You make Mandarin mandatory in the US, and you'll just end up with a bunch of people who wasted their time learning a language they will never use. And maybe some who will try using it at a Chinese-American restaurant only to learn that everyone there speaks Cantonese, or a lesser-used Chinese dialect.

Re: FBI Says Chinese Operatives Active at Scores of U.S. Universities

#156

Post by BeetleB »

GuiA wrote: post #120
BeetleB wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm torn. On the one hand, I do think people should be aware of it. On the other hand, I don't see the fuss. What you describe is the norm for many groups - not just the Chinese. >At Columbia a decade ago, the club mobilized students to protest a presentation about human rights violations in China, urging them to “resolutely defend the honor and dignity of the Motherland.” This is normal for many groups and many issu…

You make a reasonable point. That said, all the countries you mention have strong track records of human rights violations. So really China's not surrounded by good company on that issue, and maybe the takeaway should be more that we should be cautious regarding these countries and how they might try to influence discourse on US campuses rather than saying "well a bunch of corrupt governments are all doing it, what's…

>and maybe the takeaway should be more that we should be cautious regarding these countries and how they might try to influence discourse on US campuses

Which I agree with, which is why I said I do think people should be aware of it. But beyond merely being aware of it, I'm not sure there's much else to do. When you say "we should be cautious", what do you mean? How can we be any more cautious?

Ultimately, the situation exists because the US has strong laws on free speech and freedom. It should be a given that various groups will exploit these laws. If they are using students for propaganda purposes, the only useful response I can think of is likely counter-propaganda. Personally, I am wary of just saying "Beware of Chinese propaganda". I've seen that tactic used in various times in my life and the result has always been the equivalent of "Let's not trust what this person is saying because he is Chinese and we should beware of the Chinese" (i.e. many people heed the warnings and then blanket distrust the whole group of people).

Which is why I complained about the article: It's mostly "Beware of the Chinese on campuses" and not "Look at all these (specific) problems that have arisen because of the Chinese on campuses".

Re: FBI Says Chinese Operatives Active at Scores of U.S. Universities

#157

Post by geofft »

gowld wrote: post #149
geofft wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The FBI is not warning about students, but about government agents posing ad students, I.E. "operatives". What is the distinction here? I do not generally expect international students on a student visa, with no intention of becoming citizens, to forget about the interests of their home country and prioritize the interests of the country they're visiting. They're here because the school is good, that's it.

Who cares about the "interests of a country"? People care about themselves, family, friends, and charity cases.

They care about cultural values. If you've been raised your whole life to believe that every good thing in your life is because you live under your current political system, your self-interest and interest in your family will manifest as a desire to uphold that political system.

Re: FBI Says Chinese Operatives Active at Scores of U.S. Universities

#158

Post by ygaf »

platinumrad wrote: post #63
Cyberdog wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you speaking of the 50 Cent Army? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/50_Cent_Party

No I'm talking about impassioned nationalistic defenses of China on western social media platforms, not Chinese ones. Even if they are much more critical internally, on issues like Tibet which are seen as hypocritical attempts by western forces to impugn their national sovereignty, my impression is that most of the actions by Chinese internet commentators are undirected. Again, I could be wrong about this as I am not…

It's a type of pride that I can barely remember having. I think as westerners we don't feel a threat to our country's reputation when outsiders are criticizing it, we trust that our country is perceived to be generally good no matter what.

Re: FBI Says Chinese Operatives Active at Scores of U.S. Universities

#159

Post by toephu2 »

Consultant32452 wrote: post #84
toephu2 wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What no-name state school cost $100k/yr for international students? It is absurdly more expensive for int'l students but not $100k/yr. For example UC Berkeley costs $45k/year for international students [1]. [1] https://internationaloffice.berkeley.edu/students/current/ex...

In your same link the undergrad living expenses is $64k/yr.

So? That's not $100k/yr. Plus poster said tuition, not total living expenses. And that's just an estimate, one can live more frugally if required.

Re: FBI Says Chinese Operatives Active at Scores of U.S. Universities

#160

Post by vfulco »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #93
mywittyname wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even the ones driving 15 year old Chryslers likely have wealthy parents. University is absurdly expensive for international students of no particular note. On the order of $100k/yr in tuition for a no-name state school. What's another $50k when you're spending half a million dollars to educate your kid?

Universities can be expensive, but community colleges typically aren’t. Most of the fuerdai in community colleges are probably studying English to get into a university. Even though they are rich, they won’t turn down a good deal when they can get one (and since luxury cars are so much cheaper in the USA than China, they are considered good deals as well).

One of the services my company in Shanghai provides is review and final edit of applications, sometimes as a second check against what domestic (read non-native speaker) agencies have created. CC is seen as a stepping stone to 4 year degree schools. Usually it is rich kids who had no chance or inclination to pass the Chinese university entrance exam. Also many are told by the said agencies, it is the fast track to US citizenship. Most parents want a foothold in other countries as backup plan to get capital and themselves out of the PRC over time.
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