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German court rules Facebook use of personal data illegal

reuters.com

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Re: German court rules Facebook use of personal data illegal

#381

Post by rock_hard »

tripzilch wrote: post #373
rock_hard wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think that’s gonna be enforceable...there is good reason for having a real name policy

There's also a whole bunch of very good reasons for not having one. We've had this discussion already a few years ago (so I don't really feel like rehashing the same arguments again, but you can easily look them up, IIRC it was about Google+ not Facebook, but the reasoning is exactly the same).

Sure. But thats different from law makers enforcing it.

I frankly think it's each platforms right to do what they want, as much as it is people's right to not use a platform.

Therefore I believe lawmakers/courts are gonna refrain from regulating it

Re: German court rules Facebook use of personal data illegal

#382

Post by tripzilch »

lima wrote: post #59
waytogo wrote: post #18

Wait until GDPR is in place in May and German and other EU courts will rule FB to death. IDK how FB will ever be compliant with GDPR and survive that huge upcoming fines in the long term or in the worst case the withdrawal from these markets.

The GDPR isn't actually as bad as people claim. The law is actually pretty reasonable. It is the result of years of discussion and deliberation. In fact, privacy watchdogs are complaining that it doesn't go far enough - it leaves plenty of holes. Most of the GDPR is about informed consent, having a valid reason for processing personal data and individual rights. Facebook will do just fine, they had years to prepare a…

> The GDPR isn't actually as bad as people claim. The law is actually pretty reasonable. It is the result of years of discussion and deliberation. In fact, privacy watchdogs are complaining that it doesn't go far enough - it leaves plenty of holes.

I'm feeling a huge cultural gap in the discussions in this thread.

Americans seem to have a different tolerance for privacy abuse and draw the line elsewhere.

And I suppose that's okay, live and let live etc. However, so far it's really been mainly US tech companies pushing their views on privacy (read: less of it) in the EU market (kind of poisoning the field for EU companies as well, because obviously you can make more profit that way).

I don't see the (EU) public making a huge fuss about EU businesses taken to court over privacy violations (which happens), because we see it as justice as usual.

Now that the EU(/Germany) pushes back against a huge US corporation (ok multinational, technically), it's considered really harsh, from a US point of view. Some arguments going even as far as attacking our legal system (which is a bit much, coming from the US, IMHO. Americans themselves flat out admit justice is a matter of financial resources and consider that justice as usual). Apparently we have different values.

Personally, I agree it doesn't go far enough even though I'm very happy with the German ruling and hope other countries will follow suit.

Re: German court rules Facebook use of personal data illegal

#383

Post by tripzilch »

dahauns wrote: post #376
tripzilch wrote: post #371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Kids between 7 and 18 can enter into contracts, either if those contracts are entirely without duties to them (e.g. they can accept gifts) Huh, that's interesting. I'm not familiar with German law, but in the Netherlands this would legally be simply not a contract at all. A contract (in the Netherlands) explicitly requires (actually is defined as such) that both parties have contractual duties, and a contract is th…

I guess this is because in German law the central concept here is not the contract, but the Rechtsgeschäft, which is a broader term: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rechtsgesch%C3%A4ft

Thanks for the link, I like to think I can read German reasonably well but you'll forgive me if that page is a bit much to digest right now ;-)

Re: German court rules Facebook use of personal data illegal

#384

Post by tripzilch »

rock_hard wrote: post #381
tripzilch wrote: post #373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's also a whole bunch of very good reasons for not having one. We've had this discussion already a few years ago (so I don't really feel like rehashing the same arguments again, but you can easily look them up, IIRC it was about Google+ not Facebook, but the reasoning is exactly the same).

Sure. But thats different from law makers enforcing it. I frankly think it's each platforms right to do what they want, as much as it is people's right to not use a platform. Therefore I believe lawmakers/courts are gonna refrain from regulating it

I can't really tell from your comment history if you're from the US or EU, but I'm going to guess the US.

Your view on what should be platform's rights, kind of implies there is supposed to be as little regulation as possible.

And the problem with that view is, if you ask people why they are still using FB, given the knowledge of what they do with user data and privacy, the most heard excuse is that they feel they have little choice to use an alternative!

If you add to that the consideration that it is in the very nature of social network effect that this choice will be diminished to a singular monopoly (a social network is not very useful if your friends/family aren't on it), then you have to admit that the power in "people's right to not use a platform" is absolutely miniscule compared to your desired "platforms right to do what they want".

And it is that very imbalance, what regulations are intended to solve (or at least push somewhat towards fairness).

Re: German court rules Facebook use of personal data illegal

#385

Post by Barrin92 »

rock_hard wrote: post #314
Barrin92 wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

given the feedback loop of social networks there wasn't much of a reason for viable competitors to emerge in the first place. The lack of competitors here is structural, not everything is an issue of 'we must remove the red tape!' That would do nothing because nobody is voluntarily going to switch away from an established social network monopolist. It's a nash equilibrium of sorts.

People keep saying that...yet FB succeeded with MySpace in the market. Same with Instagram, WhatsApp and Snapchat.

Myspace was pretty much dead the moment facebook arrived. It's true that companies like Facebook can be replaced, but they almost never coexist or directly compete. Chat services usually split geographically. Wechat in China, Whatsapp outside of the US, snapchat in the US.

Anecdotally I know very few people who simultaneously use multiple messenger apps or switch around a lot. (For the reason outlined in the post before, you lose your network).

Re: German court rules Facebook use of personal data illegal

#386

Post by btilly »

tripzilch wrote: post #377
btilly wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that's a good thing. So the law has to be interpreted by precedence set by the courts. Most EU countries follow civil law, and precedence has a much more limited role than in common law countries. So it actually matters that the statutes be written clearly.

I think since the UK left, it's actually all of them?

Nope, Ireland also has common law.

I don't think that there are any others though.

Re: German court rules Facebook use of personal data illegal

#387

Post by tripzilch »

dominotw wrote: post #216
songshu wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The GDPR is beautiful and an example of the best outcomes democracy can produce. The winners are pretty much everyone. It's sad that the US can't implement public policy like this.

only real freedom is financial. Americans don't usually like to preemptively create rules and regulations that could hinder innovation or hurt businesses. What good is your privacy if you are poor.

It's pretty good, actually. I prefer being poor in the EU over being poor in the US. Privacy is just one of the many benefits. I've been saying "maybe we have different values" a lot in this thread, but in this case, I suggest you ask poor people in the US what they prefer. Because I get the sense that you're not poor (in a strictly financial sense, that is, because even as a poor EU-citizen I probably get more affordable healthcare :p).

Re: German court rules Facebook use of personal data illegal

#388

Post by tripzilch »

peoplewindow wrote: post #206
Xylakant wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let them buy ads targeted to their EU customers through their US presence, fine the EU firm for circumventing the rules. Hard? Yes. Impossible? No.

From the perspective of the US company, then it's not them getting fined so not their problem. And if the EU wants to fine its own companies for buying adverts, they can go right ahead and do that. Doesn't seem very practical for the local economy though.

Yeah but there's many other, compliant, ways to advertise so they'll just do that instead.

Re: German court rules Facebook use of personal data illegal

#389

Post by tripzilch »

mseebach wrote: post #266
loup-vaillant wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they do this, traditional TV will likely bang our heads over how deceptive these companies are. They will point out the fine prints in the EULA with the most outraged tone possible. They will conflate the issue with US spying on everyone ("NSA" and "Snowden" will be uttered repeatedly). Because doing so is in the interest of EU corporate powers: let's drive away, or at least hinder, US companies on our soil, so we…

> the GDPR seems fine, as well as quite defensible. So, that's the thing. Either, it's fine and defensible, and the Facebooks of the world will just comply, and so won't be a trade barrier, or it's not. It can't be both. And also, don't wish for a "trade barrier" for this purpose, import substitution has been demonstrated over and over again to be really just awful policy.

> And also, don't wish for a "trade barrier" for this purpose, import substitution has been demonstrated over and over again to be really just awful policy.

That's a very different kind of "trade barrier" than is being discussed here.

The barrier being thrown up here is in fact not so much about trade but about privacy values. I see that as a very different thing, if a business wants to draw the line for privacy ethics elsewhere, but that line happens to be subject to regulations which reflect our values, then that is indeed a barrier, but I don't see much wrong with it. Unless you want to argue that US values on privacy are somehow more right than the ones we decide on in the EU.

Re: German court rules Facebook use of personal data illegal

#390

Post by tripzilch »

freeone3000 wrote: post #227
snoman wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I could be given a bit of latitude to generalize for a second, I've noticed that America has a very "self-focused" culture wherein the individual is often seen as being solely responsible for everything relating to their self. That makes a lot of sense but I've seen this often taken to extremes such that the perspective is used to absolve various levels of government, corporations, and organizations from responsib…

That simply reflects technical reality. Once you give them information, you no longer can restrict what they can do with it technically. legally, sure, you can write whatever law you like, but the best way to protect your privacy continues to be technical measures.

But not cultural reality.
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