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German court rules Facebook use of personal data illegal

reuters.com

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Re: German court rules Facebook use of personal data illegal

#191

Post by blibble »

jimnotgym wrote: post #164
blibble wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Btw, one of GDPR's key motivation was to take FB down. this all seems very similar to the new VAT scheme, in that it was designed to target a foreign giant (Amazon), which was barely affected as a result, and instead ended up hurting the competitiveness of the EU's own small businesses the EU Commission's response to small business concerns about that new VAT scheme? "we'll allocate some time to talk about that in…

Can you elaborate on which scheme you mean please?

https://www.theguardian.com/small-business-network/2014/nov/...

and

https://www.theguardian.com/small-business-network/2015/sep/...

my solution was to stop selling into the EU, though amusingly once the UK leaves the EU I'll be able to start again (by just ignoring the EU's VAT rules)

Re: German court rules Facebook use of personal data illegal

#192

Post by dvfjsdhgfv »

saas_co_de wrote: post #135
songshu wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The GDPR is beautiful and an example of the best outcomes democracy can produce. The winners are pretty much everyone. It's sad that the US can't implement public policy like this.

It is good that they are protecting their citizens from exploitation by US companies but this is not uncommon that it is easier to regulate a large company that is not your constituent. The EU has not done so well on regulating diesel autos for instance but the US is knocking that one of the park.

Your comparison is not correct. The practices of FB are not universally considered bad, many people are OK with them. The diesel scandal was a deliberate scheme to cheat everybody - you can't find anyone who considers what they did as good. And the Germans finally started arresting people, too - although the USA gave a good example.

Re: German court rules Facebook use of personal data illegal

#193

Post by peoplewindow »

Xylakant wrote: post #145
peoplewindow wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is the law reasonable? It's not even clear what is allowed under it and what isn't. The EU refuses to clarify anything, the only time any decision will be made is by courts, if there's an actual dispute in progress. The rules are so vague that any firm could be argued to be in violation. And the EU acts as judge, jury and executioner. It looks like a way to tax the SV tech firms without needing a treaty change. A…

“And the EU acts as judge, jury and executioner.” That’s true only if you regard he EU as a single entity. Laws made via the EU will be turned into national law, and independent judges will judge all cases, up to the EU high court. By the same right you could call the US judge, jury and executioner on all laws and rules made and enforced by the US government (FACTA anyone?)

No. That's not how the EU works. That's how a national government would work but not the EU.

The GDPR is not a directive so it does not have to be translated into national law. It is directly binding and applies immediately everywhere.

Fines have to be paid up front, before appeals are exhausted. Appeals can of course take years.

The EU courts have judges appointed by the same people who control the rest of the EU, and are ideologically aligned as such. They have a long history of legislating from the bench and making shocking and nonsensical decisions: consider the case where they simply voided the UK's opt out of new human rights related legislation, despite a very clear paragraph in the treaties saying they did not apply to the UK. The court simply decided it didn't like that bit of the treaty and so it did not apply. I do not regard the ECJ as a robust court. It will rule in whatever way is most favourable to the European project.

Re: German court rules Facebook use of personal data illegal

#194

Post by mziel »

TomMarius wrote: post #180
mziel wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again, this is not deemed sufficient by GDPR. According to the law you can't condition the service you're providing on collecting unrelated (to that service) data.

The GDPR doesn't apply to US companies. While the FB has EU offices right now, they're there for convenience only. They can close them next month and stop caring about the EU law.

| they're there for convenience only. They can close them next month

Citation needed? Facebook gets revenue from their ad network, which is used by European business customers and targets European users. Therefore they need to comply with European law.

Re: German court rules Facebook use of personal data illegal

#195

Post by TomMarius »

tobltobs wrote: post #153
TomMarius wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not true anymore (changed last year after the new VAT laws)

The Irish double doesn't have anything to do with VAT. And the Irish double was replaced with the "Single Malt". It would be a loss for Ireland and Malta, still not a big loss.

Most of the tax income EU has from FB is VAT and since they now have to distribute the money to the place where the customer is, it means that all EU countries will be affected.

Re: German court rules Facebook use of personal data illegal

#196

Post by TomMarius »

madez wrote: post #176
TomMarius wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's an EU law, FB is US company.

It is of no matter where FB is incorporated. Every country can still bring it to court and judge it. The question is then of enforceability. I'm confident the EU can enforce fines on FB, but that is a different discussion.

Was there ever a single case of something like the EU successfully fining an US company for breaking laws that don't apply to the company?

Re: German court rules Facebook use of personal data illegal

#197

Post by TomMarius »

detaro wrote: post #183
TomMarius wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So how exactly do they collect data on people who are not on FB? Through websites with their tracking codes - and that's why the EU introduced so called 'cookie law' that says a website can't track you until you give consent (e.g. by continuing to use the website). There's of course the way of other people giving them your data such as photos of you - but that's illegal and against FB TOS.

Where do facebook ToS forbid uploading pictures of non-members?

In the part where they ask you to follow the laws. Also not of "non-members" but of "people that didn't give you consent to share the content with a third party".

Re: German court rules Facebook use of personal data illegal

#198

Post by peoplewindow »

Joe-Z wrote: post #171
peoplewindow wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is the law reasonable? It's not even clear what is allowed under it and what isn't. The EU refuses to clarify anything, the only time any decision will be made is by courts, if there's an actual dispute in progress. The rules are so vague that any firm could be argued to be in violation. And the EU acts as judge, jury and executioner. It looks like a way to tax the SV tech firms without needing a treaty change. A…

>The rules are so vague that any firm could be argued to be in violation. I think that's a good thing. So the law has to be interpreted by precedence set by the courts. If the text of is too specific you could have the opposite effect of companies weaseling through. It is not a tax. It's pretty clear that the EU expects companies to treat private user data with respect. If your company cannot operate without exploiti…

Why have any law at all, by your logic? Just have a single law that says "Whatever we decide, is final" and make up all rulings and fines on the fly. No 'weaselling' is possible then. Only problem is, it's totalitarian. Nobody knows what is or is not allowed, there is no such thing as justice.

Law is meant to be precise. If it's not, then ignorance of the law does become an excuse and law loses its moral authority.

Unfortunately the EU does seem rather keen on laws so vague that they're impossible to understand - it's rule by law, not rule of law.

Re: German court rules Facebook use of personal data illegal

#199

Post by SilasX »

Tharkun wrote: post #30

FB have taken out huge newspaper and billboard ads in Belgium, pretending to care about your privacy. They're trying to divert attention from their real privacy issues, by saying "you can choose who can see your stuff".

"Awesome, can I choose what you do with--"

'Dream on.'

Re: German court rules Facebook use of personal data illegal

#200

Post by btilly »

Joe-Z wrote: post #171
peoplewindow wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is the law reasonable? It's not even clear what is allowed under it and what isn't. The EU refuses to clarify anything, the only time any decision will be made is by courts, if there's an actual dispute in progress. The rules are so vague that any firm could be argued to be in violation. And the EU acts as judge, jury and executioner. It looks like a way to tax the SV tech firms without needing a treaty change. A…

>The rules are so vague that any firm could be argued to be in violation. I think that's a good thing. So the law has to be interpreted by precedence set by the courts. If the text of is too specific you could have the opposite effect of companies weaseling through. It is not a tax. It's pretty clear that the EU expects companies to treat private user data with respect. If your company cannot operate without exploiti…

I think that's a good thing. So the law has to be interpreted by precedence set by the courts.

Most EU countries follow civil law, and precedence has a much more limited role than in common law countries. So it actually matters that the statutes be written clearly.

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