German court rules Facebook use of personal data illegal • Hacker News Board

Re: German court rules Facebook use of personal data illegal

#371

Post by tripzilch » Tue, Feb 13, 2018, 5:58 PM UTC

claudius wrote: post #336

buster wrote: post #327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't understand that part as well. As far as I know, kids can't sign contracts. They are not "geschäftsfähig" (business capable) until they are 18. Unless the parents explicitly agree to some contract.

Kids under 7 cannot enter into contracts at all. Kids between 7 and 18 can enter into contracts, either if those contracts are entirely without duties to them (e.g. they can accept gifts) or if their contractual duties are somewhat negligible (e.g. they can buy sweets from their pocket money) or their guardians agreed to them being able to enter into such contracts. All other contracts are provisionally void (?!, "sc…

> Kids between 7 and 18 can enter into contracts, either if those contracts are entirely without duties to them (e.g. they can accept gifts)

Huh, that's interesting. I'm not familiar with German law, but in the Netherlands this would legally be simply not a contract at all. A contract (in the Netherlands) explicitly requires (actually is defined as such) that both parties have contractual duties, and a contract is the formalisation of the exchange of these ("this for that").

It makes a lot of sense too. If one party has no duties, they can't be held to the contract, so what's the use of even having one.

Re: German court rules Facebook use of personal data illegal

#372

Post by tripzilch » Tue, Feb 13, 2018, 5:59 PM UTC

madez wrote: post #335

buster wrote: post #327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't understand that part as well. As far as I know, kids can't sign contracts. They are not "geschäftsfähig" (business capable) until they are 18. Unless the parents explicitly agree to some contract.

Teenagers can agree to contracts, but only in very limited terms. For example, they can buy food in a supermarket. Buying stuff in a store constitutes a contract.

Is that German law? Because in the Netherlands this is called a "sale", and comes with very different rights and duties for both parties.

Re: German court rules Facebook use of personal data illegal

#373

Post by tripzilch » Tue, Feb 13, 2018, 6:03 PM UTC

rock_hard wrote: post #315

mirimir wrote: post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It'd be very cool if they lost the real-name policy.

I don’t think that’s gonna be enforceable...there is good reason for having a real name policy

There's also a whole bunch of very good reasons for not having one. We've had this discussion already a few years ago (so I don't really feel like rehashing the same arguments again, but you can easily look them up, IIRC it was about Google+ not Facebook, but the reasoning is exactly the same).

Re: German court rules Facebook use of personal data illegal

#374

Post by tripzilch » Tue, Feb 13, 2018, 6:12 PM UTC

waytogo wrote: post #18

Wait until GDPR is in place in May and German and other EU courts will rule FB to death. IDK how FB will ever be compliant with GDPR and survive that huge upcoming fines in the long term or in the worst case the withdrawal from these markets.

> IDK how FB will ever be compliant with GDPR and survive that huge upcoming fines in the long term or in the worst case the withdrawal from these markets.

The worst case? I think that's the best case, actually.

You do realize there's nothing special about Facebook at all, except for currently being the most popular and biggest social network. The major features I hear people repeat again and again for not leaving Facebook (keeping in touch with family and friends, planning events) also happen to the most basic, easily reproducible features. It's just getting the userbase that is hard.

So yeah, Facebook withdrawing from EU markets? PLEASE DO! I predict within no time, we'll have a whole bunch of replacement social networks (they already exist even), with better features, better privacy and hopefully interoperability.

It's not hard to switch at all, not even to the general public. They'll just register for whatever their friends are using. The only thing holding them hostage is that "everyone is on it". In fact teenagers already want to be on social networks their parents aren't on.

They might lose their timeline, comments, posts, memories, pictures? Guess who they'll blame.

Re: German court rules Facebook use of personal data illegal

#375

Post by dahauns » Tue, Feb 13, 2018, 6:22 PM UTC

stordoff wrote: post #343

dahauns wrote: post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>consider the case where they simply voided the UK's opt out of new human rights related legislation Erm...you are aware that this case has nothing to do with the ECJ, but with the ECHR, which isn't even an institution of the EU, but of the Council of Europe* , which is an entity completely separate from (and older than) the EU. * not to be confused with the European Council or the Council of the European Union. Yeah…

The decision OP refers to is a ECJ decision on the Charter of Fundamental Rights (NS v Home Secretary), not an ECtHR decision.

My apologies, I was indeed wrong.

Re: German court rules Facebook use of personal data illegal

#376

Post by dahauns » Tue, Feb 13, 2018, 6:31 PM UTC

tripzilch wrote: post #371

claudius wrote: post #336

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kids under 7 cannot enter into contracts at all. Kids between 7 and 18 can enter into contracts, either if those contracts are entirely without duties to them (e.g. they can accept gifts) or if their contractual duties are somewhat negligible (e.g. they can buy sweets from their pocket money) or their guardians agreed to them being able to enter into such contracts. All other contracts are provisionally void (?!, "sc…

> Kids between 7 and 18 can enter into contracts, either if those contracts are entirely without duties to them (e.g. they can accept gifts) Huh, that's interesting. I'm not familiar with German law, but in the Netherlands this would legally be simply not a contract at all. A contract (in the Netherlands) explicitly requires (actually is defined as such) that both parties have contractual duties, and a contract is th…

I guess this is because in German law the central concept here is not the contract, but the Rechtsgeschäft, which is a broader term:

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rechtsgesch%C3%A4ft

Re: German court rules Facebook use of personal data illegal

#377

Post by tripzilch » Tue, Feb 13, 2018, 6:35 PM UTC

btilly wrote: post #200

Joe-Z wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The rules are so vague that any firm could be argued to be in violation. I think that's a good thing. So the law has to be interpreted by precedence set by the courts. If the text of is too specific you could have the opposite effect of companies weaseling through. It is not a tax. It's pretty clear that the EU expects companies to treat private user data with respect. If your company cannot operate without exploiti…

I think that's a good thing. So the law has to be interpreted by precedence set by the courts. Most EU countries follow civil law, and precedence has a much more limited role than in common law countries. So it actually matters that the statutes be written clearly.

I think since the UK left, it's actually all of them?

Re: German court rules Facebook use of personal data illegal

#378

Post by tripzilch » Tue, Feb 13, 2018, 6:47 PM UTC

lima wrote: post #253

jbigelow76 wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If somebody says "X has money and an army of lawyers" the implication is they are going to beat the case, Microsoft didn't, they were slapped with the largest fine ever at the time ($794 million USD). They are fine despite the inability of lawyers and prep time to deliver victory, not because of it. No guarantees FB will fare better (or worse).

Parent claims that Facebook will not "ever be compliant" and "in the worst case the withdraw from these markets".

The worst case would be FB never being compliant. Withdrawing from the markets would be the best case scenario, given non-compliance.

Re: German court rules Facebook use of personal data illegal

#379

Post by tripzilch » Tue, Feb 13, 2018, 7:04 PM UTC

MaxBarraclough wrote: post #341

Analemma_ wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We'll have to wait a while before we know for sure, but one loser might be technology startups, especially European ones. As much talk as there has been about the effects of GDPR on huge companies, the fact is, they're not too concerned: they have enough lawyers to throw at the legal issues and enough engineers to throw at the technical issues. Smaller companies without these resources are going to see their lives ge…

We already know that at least some small US companies can't justify the cost of compliance, even if it means cutting out the EU. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16114530

Well that's ... kind of the point, isn't it? If they're not going to be compliant and respect our privacy, or even if they kind of would like to be sort of privacy-respecting in a sense except that their business model precludes them from actually being able to be compliant however since business models are rather subject to change especially with the SV "get venture capital and break stuff" mentality, such that even the "in a sense" part is exceedingly likely to become unjustifiably cost-inefficient as soon as the business gets big enough to believe they can get away with it (like, you know, Facebook, Google, etc), ... then, good riddance, right?

I mean, just because a company believes they can claim to "respect your privacy" without actually being compliant to the EU regulations specifying they should do such, let's call it a cultural difference then.

Re: German court rules Facebook use of personal data illegal

#380

Post by tripzilch » Tue, Feb 13, 2018, 7:15 PM UTC

dvfjsdhgfv wrote: post #192

saas_co_de wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is good that they are protecting their citizens from exploitation by US companies but this is not uncommon that it is easier to regulate a large company that is not your constituent. The EU has not done so well on regulating diesel autos for instance but the US is knocking that one of the park.

Your comparison is not correct. The practices of FB are not universally considered bad, many people are OK with them. The diesel scandal was a deliberate scheme to cheat everybody - you can't find anyone who considers what they did as good. And the Germans finally started arresting people, too - although the USA gave a good example.

> The practices of FB are not universally considered bad, many people are OK with them

Really. Please point me at these people.

People that simply "don't care, yolo" do not count. People that have a stake in this because they have an interest in the tech business and fear that any decisions in this matter might negatively impact their business, also do not count (because a very specific yet vocal slice of the tech sector is hardly representative of what is "universally" considered right or wrong).

If you think that's too restrictive, and those are the only two groups you can point at, that's okay. I don't really believe those two groups (ignorance and business interest) should be considered representative of what is universally considered right or wrong. If you believe otherwise we'll have to agree to have a different view on ethics (which is a bit of a long discussion I'm not up for right now).

Everybody else I hear about this (I said "almost everybody" at first, but I can't think of anyone), DOES think it's bad, but admit that "what can you do, if everyone uses it" (hence the need for EU regulations!!) and because "it's really useful to keep in touch with long-distance friends and family, also to plan events etc", the latter being a reasonable point except there's nothing unique about FB's capability providing this service, and it's really easy enough to do it without violating privacy, if it weren't for FB dominating the social network sphere and forcing the privacy violations on the general public.