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Why American men are getting less marriageable

businessinsider.com

101–110 of 121 posts

Re: Why American men are getting less marriageable

#101
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AFAIK marriage does give enormous significant breaks in most western societies.

Does it? I'm about to get married in the UK and I cannot name a single break that we will get while married. I think you can transfer some of your tax-free allowance to your spouse, but only if one of you makes less than 10k/year, so with both of us working there is no benefit here. It's slightly easier to get a large loan or mortgage as a married couple, but it's not exactly impossible if you just live together as p…

Wait a few more generations for Western birth rates to plummet and you'll start seeing more breaks. It feels good to know that even the most intimate aspects of your life are actually controlled by society through elected/selected governments.

Re: Why American men are getting less marriageable

#102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article implies these men aren't even getting to the stage where they can make the decision on whether it's beneficial.

It implies that but in no way proved that. The only statistic it offers is the marriage rate. As if women are the only ones who select mates. Of course they are the sexual gatekeepers. It makes me wonder how much single motherhood is involved. I'm sure many men aren't willing to start a relationship with a single mother. Not to mention single mothers have a different outlook for what they want in a man than a single…

"Dorn and his colleagues find that when towns and counties lose manufacturing jobs, fertility and marriage rates among young adults go down, too. Unmarried births and the share of children living in single-parent homes go up. Meanwhile, places with higher manufacturing employment have a bigger wage gap between men and women, and a higher marriage rate."

It seems clear which way the cause and effect goes from that.

Re: Why American men are getting less marriageable

#103

I think the job/economy weights much less then the fact that marriage gives absolutely zero benefits for men in western society and implies a lot of risks.

Absolutely zero benefits for men? Wow. You sure don't have anything like my marriage. I got a woman who is a joy to be with for the rest of my life. 27 years later, and she's still a joy. I wanted to spend the rest of my life with her then, and I still do now.

Now, you could argue that I could have gotten the same deal without marriage, just living with her for. But first, I could not have gotten that deal - not with her. It was marriage or nothing. And second, I didn't want just living together either. I wanted the real thing, with the commitment. I wanted to commit to her, not just to an institution or a tradition.

Re: Why American men are getting less marriageable

#104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For what it’s worth, we are really good at lifting heavy things and reaching stuff on high shelves. :)

I can lift heavy things too. And for $30/hr I can hire someone twice a year to lift the ones I can't (and can't get a brother, friend, or neighbor to help with). As for high shelves, even if you're taller than me (not guaranteed) I've got this thing called a stepladder for that.

So you date shorter men ?

Re: Why American men are getting less marriageable

#105
post #61

> They reference recent results from the World Values Survey, where respondents were asked how much they agreed with the claim that, "If a woman earns more money than her husband, it's almost certain to cause problems." That sounds a bit to me like a push poll. I wonder if you phrased the question in a gender-neutral way how the responses would change.

A marriage isn't comprised of gender-neutral actors.

Sure. The question as phrased is pretty suggestive though. I wouldn't be surprised if you asked that question, and the reverse question, and a gender-neutral version of the question, you would get results that look contradictory.

Really, you would have to ask just one question to each individual, because I suspect if you asked all three questions you would get different responses than if you only asked one. I'm not denying the effect, just that I think the question is leading.

Re: Why American men are getting less marriageable

#106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe I'll be after you for that contract soon :-) We've developed a bit of a different style where I'm her 'safety net' for the things she still puts pressure on herself to do. Like washing/ironing and cooking. Cleaning has mainly been resolved and we do what's needed when needed. House organisation/upkeep is mine, all critical kids care is mine. But everything else we pretty much just communicate with each other. T…

I wonder if that's enculturated from how she was raised or could be our remaining societal pressures/expectations of women (her friend group?) at work despite rhetoric otherwise?

I asked her - it's both.

Re: Why American men are getting less marriageable

#107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder if that's enculturated from how she was raised or could be our remaining societal pressures/expectations of women (her friend group?) at work despite rhetoric otherwise?

I asked her - it's both.

Ah, yeah, there we go I guess. I know as a unmarried straight, white male that expectations are pretty low for me but married women (esp. with kids) seem to be in a catch-22 with all this. The Guardian had a series of articles a while back talking with women about careers and parenthood. It takes a lot of energy to fight against stuff you grew up with as well as conscious or unconscious societal forces.

There's also the factor of having done one thing a certain way for a long time, getting a little possessive of it or thinking it's better. "Well, if you do it like this...". :-/

At least y'all are talking about it and you seem to be concerned with having a good balance.

Re: Why American men are getting less marriageable

#108
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your theory does not take into account pretty normal human psychology and biology, both male and female. No, you can not communicate away resentment over what is rationally speaking unfair situation. It will not go away when you set expectations (and actually only one of partners is in position to set expectations), those can only prevent you speak which has tendency to just bottle things up. Yes, it feels good to be…

>Your theory does not take into account pretty normal human psychology and biology, both male and female. No, you can not communicate away resentment over what is rationally speaking unfair situation. I don't really see how it is an unfair situation. Cleaning, cooking, and home chores in general aren't exactly easy. I know personally I'd definitely like to have someone at least help do those things. I wouldn't mind g…

> There is a reason a division of labor started among humans to begin with.

Historical division of labor was entirely different. And no, those things in modern setting do not amount to full time job. Moreover, the idea that whole gender is composed of personality type that likes isolated routine work with pretty much zero external motivation is ridiculous. 1960 America middle class housewife is not historical norm by any meaning. The majority of population were peasants, both genders overworked.

Or otherwise said, I don't like cleaning either and prefer someone else to do it too, but it is not because I would perceived it as difficult. Nor is it something that in 2018 requires someone full time at home.

> Yes, which is why having children and helping support her husband while also ...

That is his hope for her feelings which is not the same as her feelings. While some women might totally feel that way, a lot simply don't. There are schools and they are not harming kids at all. Kids really don't need stay at home parent beyond very small age.

> Caring for children is quite possibly the most important and useful job humans have. It is the reason why we create civilizations and why men go and try to provide for his family.

That is not how and why we created civilization, historically speaking. But, be teacher if it is the most important and useful job human can have. Why are you not? Why are you here instead of arguing over what is best way to teach reading?

> I suppose if you don't have children there's no real reason to not try to have a career of your own.

There is no reason not to try career of her own if she has children too. Just like men have careers on their own with children.

> When in reality men were simply doing things to make people's lives better, and women benefitted the most.

That is nonsense even outside of gender relations. Men (and women) did things for many various reasons, occasionally "making people's lives better" one of them. Many times, simply not. If women benefited the most, then be happy for that revolution, cause women fought and argued to benefit less and you should, logically, benefit from it. Consider it a gift.

There is side effect of this setup - that her idea about whether she is happy mattered much less then your theories about what she should be happy about. And your theories just happen to coincide with that makes you feel good about yourself (which is normal and human). You cant do things for someone benefit if you refuse to consider that someones opinion over she likes and wants.

> Charitable organizations need volunteers, houses need people to make them feel like a home.

Volunteer then. I am fine with it. I am even fine with paying higher taxes and social structures that help poor. But, the houses don't need people to feel like home. The houses need nothing except occasional reparation.

Or at least, your feeling of "like home" is not worth of what it cost in her feelings.

> These women convinced other women ...

The discontent and unhappiness was very real. Even now, being long term stay at home moms is considered risk factor for depression and alcoholism in women. There is reason why many women that came back to work talk about being happier after they came to work. There are some that simply love that period of their lives, but they are not nearly majority.

Very few people are built for reality of it - reality of things is always very different that naive romantic fantasy.

Re: Why American men are getting less marriageable

#109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hans Rosling has a talk dedicated to just the effect of the washing machine on female emancipation: https://www.ted.com/talks/hans_rosling_and_the_magic_washing...

Part of the effect of that automation wasn't to free up women's time but rather to raise the standards of cleanliness against which we judge people's homes to the level achievable by a woman working at it full time WITH that automation.

That sort of makes sense. Lets say that you are housewife that believes female purpose is in being housewife. Automation freed up time quite a lot, but did not changed your believes about your own purpose. So what you gonna do? Doing crosswords for hours or watching tv for hours is lazy. So, you just continue to spend time on what you perceive as your purpose, to be better at it.

And maybe, Betty over the street did the above reasoning, has cleaner house and you want measure up. You wanna do right by your family. Maybe there is a piece of you that is competitive, which is pretty normal among humans, although you don't use that piece often.

For automation to really free time the women's time, the next step is needed - women finding the reasonable socially accepted thing (most people want to do socially accepted things) to do with that time. Eventually it did happened, just not right away.

Re: Why American men are getting less marriageable

#110
post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Part of the effect of that automation wasn't to free up women's time but rather to raise the standards of cleanliness against which we judge people's homes to the level achievable by a woman working at it full time WITH that automation.

That sort of makes sense. Lets say that you are housewife that believes female purpose is in being housewife. Automation freed up time quite a lot, but did not changed your believes about your own purpose. So what you gonna do? Doing crosswords for hours or watching tv for hours is lazy. So, you just continue to spend time on what you perceive as your purpose, to be better at it. And maybe, Betty over the street did…

It's largely subjective.

You can set an unrealistic standard of cleanliness, like: polishing doorknobs, cleaning windows, the roof and the basement every day. Or do your cleaning routine twice per day, or 3 times... when does it stop?

Then, at some moment cleaning has diminishing returns and becomes redundant. Plus, day to day activities may require to make things dirty temporarily, and wanting to preserve a permanent state of cleanliness may interfere with those activities.

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