Why American men are getting less marriageable • Hacker News Board

Re: Why American men are getting less marriageable

#31

Post by seanalltogether » Fri, Jan 26, 2018, 11:51 AM UTC

PuffinBlue wrote: post #20

cimmanom wrote: post #12

Looking at this from another perspective: As a modern woman who makes good money, I'd be comfortable in theory with marrying a man who makes far less than I do. The problem with that in practice is gender roles in marriage. It's still the norm for women to be responsible for the lion's share of cooking, cleaning, and childrearing. Even in the marriages with the most "woke" husbands I see among my friends, the wife al…

> The solution, in my opinion, would be to continue to erase traditional gender roles. If most of the men out there were ready to take on the homemaker role enthusiastically, I would be far more willing to consider them as partners even if they make a fraction of what I do. The solution is not merely one sided. Women must also be willing to 'give up' those roles. Say what you will about men stepping up but my ongoing…

While I'm not in the same situation as you, it has been interesting to watch my wife change into supermom since having our first kid. She has taken a 1 year maternity leave but with all the activities she does with the baby and the increased interest in cooking, cleaning, baking etc I have serious doubts that she'll want to return to work after the one year is over.

Re: Why American men are getting less marriageable

#32

Post by carlmr » Fri, Jan 26, 2018, 11:52 AM UTC

bufferoverflow wrote: post #8

munchor wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AFAIK marriage does give enormous significant breaks in most western societies.

Until the divorce, then men get wrecked financially most of the time, losing houses, half the money, forced to pay alimony.

Adding to that, the new generation more often than not grew up with divorced parents. This kind of sets the precedent in the young males mind that marriage is not good if it turns sour, and that the "in good as in bad times until death do us part" is just completely meaningless babble.

Looking at my friends there's a pattern, a man who loses his job long term becomes divorced quite quickly. So there's no added safety for the man and no economic incentive (or even a disincentive, not sure how bad it really looks for men losing everything in court).

Re: Why American men are getting less marriageable

#33

Post by Blackstone4 » Fri, Jan 26, 2018, 11:54 AM UTC

Gatsky wrote: post #24

cimmanom wrote: post #12

Looking at this from another perspective: As a modern woman who makes good money, I'd be comfortable in theory with marrying a man who makes far less than I do. The problem with that in practice is gender roles in marriage. It's still the norm for women to be responsible for the lion's share of cooking, cleaning, and childrearing. Even in the marriages with the most "woke" husbands I see among my friends, the wife al…

This is exactly why women in Japan have stopped getting married, it's a terrible deal for them as there is no flexibility in gender roles. Men, as they currently exist, are becoming obsolete. There will need to be a great adaptation and reassignment of roles as women will soon surpass men in their 'default' social, financial and political status. Frankly, it isn't going to go down very well. Lets hope that traditiona…

> Men, as they currently exist, are becoming obsolete. There will need to be a great adaptation and reassignment of roles as women will soon surpass men in their 'default' social, financial and political status.

@Gatsky that's a strong statement. Would you mind expanding on your definition of "Men, as they currently exist"?

Re: Why American men are getting less marriageable

#34

Post by gaius » Fri, Jan 26, 2018, 11:56 AM UTC

bufferoverflow wrote: post #21

swiley wrote: post #5

Looking at people I know and people I've dated, employability seems like the least interesting thing to women.

That's factually not true, women rarely date down. Women, on average, prefer slightly older men, equally or more educated then themselves, more successful than themselves financially, in good physical shape, dominant/aggressive. That's why we always hear "where did all the good men go?" from women, even though they are surrounded by guys who throw themselves at the women. So since more women and fewer men started goi…

That's factually not true, women rarely date down

I call shenanigans. A guy will no prospects and a guitar will never be wanting for interest. It’s a cliche for a reason. Now this guy may not be husband material, but the criteria was “date”...

Re: Why American men are getting less marriageable

#35

Post by pentae » Fri, Jan 26, 2018, 11:56 AM UTC

So if I read the article correctly, the average American male has lost his job due to economic forces as well as gender equality, but it's also his fault and his responsibility to change. Seems fair.

Re: Why American men are getting less marriageable

#36

Post by PuffinBlue » Fri, Jan 26, 2018, 11:57 AM UTC

arethuza wrote: post #29

PuffinBlue wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The solution, in my opinion, would be to continue to erase traditional gender roles. If most of the men out there were ready to take on the homemaker role enthusiastically, I would be far more willing to consider them as partners even if they make a fraction of what I do. The solution is not merely one sided. Women must also be willing to 'give up' those roles. Say what you will about men stepping up but my ongoing…

Perhaps its because my wife is a commercial litigation lawyer - but we've ended up having a fairly firm "contract" as to who does what in our household. She shops, I cook. She cleans some parts of the house, I clean others. We both look after our own clothes. Just about everything has a clear demarcation and, in general, we do the bits we like (or at least dislike least). This has survived 27 years and kids so far...…

Maybe I'll be after you for that contract soon :-)

We've developed a bit of a different style where I'm her 'safety net' for the things she still puts pressure on herself to do. Like washing/ironing and cooking. Cleaning has mainly been resolved and we do what's needed when needed. House organisation/upkeep is mine, all critical kids care is mine.

But everything else we pretty much just communicate with each other. That seems to have been the key to success so far.

Re: Why American men are getting less marriageable

#37

Post by gaius » Fri, Jan 26, 2018, 11:57 AM UTC

munchor wrote: post #4

romanovcode wrote: post #2

I think the job/economy weights much less then the fact that marriage gives absolutely zero benefits for men in western society and implies a lot of risks.

AFAIK marriage does give enormous significant breaks in most western societies.

No tax breaks in the UK, haven’t been in a looooong time, with the sole exception of inheritance

Re: Why American men are getting less marriageable

#38

Post by bufferoverflow » Fri, Jan 26, 2018, 11:59 AM UTC

gaius wrote: post #34

bufferoverflow wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's factually not true, women rarely date down. Women, on average, prefer slightly older men, equally or more educated then themselves, more successful than themselves financially, in good physical shape, dominant/aggressive. That's why we always hear "where did all the good men go?" from women, even though they are surrounded by guys who throw themselves at the women. So since more women and fewer men started goi…

That's factually not true, women rarely date down I call shenanigans. A guy will no prospects and a guitar will never be wanting for interest. It’s a cliche for a reason. Now this guy may not be husband material, but the criteria was “date”...

You mean a good looking tall guy with a guitar.

Re: Why American men are getting less marriageable

#39

Post by edent » Fri, Jan 26, 2018, 12:00 PM UTC

gambiting wrote: post #9

munchor wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AFAIK marriage does give enormous significant breaks in most western societies.

Does it? I'm about to get married in the UK and I cannot name a single break that we will get while married. I think you can transfer some of your tax-free allowance to your spouse, but only if one of you makes less than 10k/year, so with both of us working there is no benefit here. It's slightly easier to get a large loan or mortgage as a married couple, but it's not exactly impossible if you just live together as p…

In the UK, the most important benefits are - sadly - to do with death. If you die intestate, then the presumption is that everything is left to your spouse. Similarly with your pension, a premature death would see the pension transfer automatically to the person you married. That's not always the case with partners.

You also benefit from spousal privilege, meaning you can't be compelled to testify against the other. Although, depending on your criminal inclinations, that may not be a strong reason to get married!

Re: Why American men are getting less marriageable

#40

Post by alterego2 » Fri, Jan 26, 2018, 12:00 PM UTC

cimmanom wrote: post #12

Looking at this from another perspective: As a modern woman who makes good money, I'd be comfortable in theory with marrying a man who makes far less than I do. The problem with that in practice is gender roles in marriage. It's still the norm for women to be responsible for the lion's share of cooking, cleaning, and childrearing. Even in the marriages with the most "woke" husbands I see among my friends, the wife al…

So, essentially, women still want to marry a man who earns more than them. At the same time we're fighting hard for women to earn the same (or more) on average.

No wonder the marriage is declining.