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Why American men are getting less marriageable

businessinsider.com

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Re: Why American men are getting less marriageable

#71

Post by cimmanom »

brightball wrote: post #41
cimmanom wrote: post #12

Looking at this from another perspective: As a modern woman who makes good money, I'd be comfortable in theory with marrying a man who makes far less than I do. The problem with that in practice is gender roles in marriage. It's still the norm for women to be responsible for the lion's share of cooking, cleaning, and childrearing. Even in the marriages with the most "woke" husbands I see among my friends, the wife al…

For what it’s worth, we are really good at lifting heavy things and reaching stuff on high shelves. :)

I can lift heavy things too. And for $30/hr I can hire someone twice a year to lift the ones I can't (and can't get a brother, friend, or neighbor to help with). As for high shelves, even if you're taller than me (not guaranteed) I've got this thing called a stepladder for that.

Re: Why American men are getting less marriageable

#72

Post by dagw »

PuffinBlue wrote: post #55
badminton1 wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is assuming that a household can afford it, which is not always the case. Then, historically, before house appliances, the burden of home tasks was brutal. No washing machines, driers, dishwashers, vacuum cleaners, microwave ovens, no instant or fast food, etc. What can now be done in a few minutes used to take hours, and require more work, to the point it was a full time occupation. I am glad this is no longer…

Hans Rosling has a talk dedicated to just the effect of the washing machine on female emancipation: https://www.ted.com/talks/hans_rosling_and_the_magic_washing...

It's worth noting that his position isn't universally accpeted. I know Tim Harford for example questioned these findings in one of his podcasts.

https://twitter.com/TimHarford/status/883373670990786561

Of course some people then went on to question Tim Harford...

Re: Why American men are getting less marriageable

#73

Post by cimmanom »

hycaria wrote: post #42
cimmanom wrote: post #12

Looking at this from another perspective: As a modern woman who makes good money, I'd be comfortable in theory with marrying a man who makes far less than I do. The problem with that in practice is gender roles in marriage. It's still the norm for women to be responsible for the lion's share of cooking, cleaning, and childrearing. Even in the marriages with the most "woke" husbands I see among my friends, the wife al…

As a woman, the solution is to know what you want. House care is not an obligation. You can pay people to clean or just accept to have a relative untidyness in your home. You don't have to have children either (which is a burden I don't think is ever equally shared). The problem is the pressure women put on themselves, out of social mimicry. I don't give a shit if I'm not the perfect housekeeper, that's not my goal i…

Not everyone can afford to have someone else clean for them. In fact, those who can afford it are a small and privileged group even in cities like NY and SF where they're relatively highly concentrated. The article above is specifically about average families in parts of the country where jobs paying that kind of money are extremely rare.

And if you don't clean a certain minimum amount, yeah, your home gets unhygienically disgusting. As proven by the 6 months of beard shavings and toothpaste spittle crusted up on my ex's sink. (And that was the least disgusting surface in the bathroom.)

The same goes for things like washing bedsheets and towels now and then; leaving clothing all over the floor where you trip on them in the dark; letting dishes pile up in the sink until you get pests; and more.

Technology has decreased the amount of time required to keep a home to a minimum standard of cleanliness - but it still requires a certain amount of attention and effort.

Then if you have a partner who's either unwilling to clean or whose standards for "gross" are far lower than yours, you're stuck cleaning for two or living in conditions you find unlivable.

And that's without even beginning to get into the complications of childcare for those couples who want children for reasons other than social pressures and norms.

Re: Why American men are getting less marriageable

#74

Post by badminton1 »

PuffinBlue wrote: post #55
badminton1 wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is assuming that a household can afford it, which is not always the case. Then, historically, before house appliances, the burden of home tasks was brutal. No washing machines, driers, dishwashers, vacuum cleaners, microwave ovens, no instant or fast food, etc. What can now be done in a few minutes used to take hours, and require more work, to the point it was a full time occupation. I am glad this is no longer…

Hans Rosling has a talk dedicated to just the effect of the washing machine on female emancipation: https://www.ted.com/talks/hans_rosling_and_the_magic_washing...

Well, you could also hire laundry services, which used to be done by hand either individually in water courses or in places known as washhouses or lavoirs... or in laundry boats (french bateaux-lavoirs). My grandfather, who was not wealthy, told me that he used the services of a professional laundress in his 20s.

But then once you are done with laundry you've got cooking, washing, ironing, etc...

Ironing became optional for some people as fibers started receiving a special treatment to reduce wrinkling. Before that, clothes would wrinkle beyond what most people today would be comfortable wearing. Before electricity, irons were powered by coal and of course had no thermostat.

Before refrigeration and other modern methods for preserving food, you also had to buy fresh food constantly, or preserve food in archaic ways like salting.

Then, before plumbing and sewers, rather than getting water from a faucet you had to go get water from a well.

Re: Why American men are getting less marriageable

#75

Post by cimmanom »

PuffinBlue wrote: post #55
badminton1 wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is assuming that a household can afford it, which is not always the case. Then, historically, before house appliances, the burden of home tasks was brutal. No washing machines, driers, dishwashers, vacuum cleaners, microwave ovens, no instant or fast food, etc. What can now be done in a few minutes used to take hours, and require more work, to the point it was a full time occupation. I am glad this is no longer…

Hans Rosling has a talk dedicated to just the effect of the washing machine on female emancipation: https://www.ted.com/talks/hans_rosling_and_the_magic_washing...

Part of the effect of that automation wasn't to free up women's time but rather to raise the standards of cleanliness against which we judge people's homes to the level achievable by a woman working at it full time WITH that automation.

Re: Why American men are getting less marriageable

#76

Post by ajuc »

cimmanom wrote: post #12

Looking at this from another perspective: As a modern woman who makes good money, I'd be comfortable in theory with marrying a man who makes far less than I do. The problem with that in practice is gender roles in marriage. It's still the norm for women to be responsible for the lion's share of cooking, cleaning, and childrearing. Even in the marriages with the most "woke" husbands I see among my friends, the wife al…

> That means that for men, marriage lightens the burden of (for lack of a better term) managing life, leaving more time and energy for career.

Not my experience. It's easier to have a career, hobbies, and energy if you're single, than if you're in a "modern" marriage. I'd argue it's easier even compared to "oldfashioned" marriage, but for different reasons, but that's just a guess.

People still get married, because love, and kids, and social expectations, and tax cuts ;), but in my experience being alone requires the least effort.

> The solution, in my opinion, would be to continue to erase traditional gender roles. If most of the men out there were ready to take on the homemaker role enthusiastically, I would be far more willing to consider them as partners even if they make a fraction of what I do.

Why would you want to erase them? These roles developed and exist for a reason. Obviously the alternative roles should be promoted as viable and respectable choices, but the existing roles exist because for most people it's a good fit.

I've met women that are quite angry at society for making them feel inadequate because they just want to be housewives.

> If most of the men out there were ready to take on the homemaker role enthusiastically, I would be far more willing to consider them as partners even if they make a fraction of what I do.

Why do you want most? Isn't it sufficient if some do? You won't marry all of them :)

Re: Why American men are getting less marriageable

#77

Post by megaman22 »

cimmanom wrote: post #12

Looking at this from another perspective: As a modern woman who makes good money, I'd be comfortable in theory with marrying a man who makes far less than I do. The problem with that in practice is gender roles in marriage. It's still the norm for women to be responsible for the lion's share of cooking, cleaning, and childrearing. Even in the marriages with the most "woke" husbands I see among my friends, the wife al…

I think that one of the primary disconnects is that the amount of domestic work that a typical man finds necessary and the amount a typical woman finds necessary are wildly different. Men, by and large, have spent their single lives existing with entire classes of housework, that their female partners consider essential, not being done or even considered. And those tasks that men have done for themselves are typically done at a much lower frequency or degree of thoroughness than might be expected by another party.

Re: Why American men are getting less marriageable

#78

Post by moltar »

cimmanom wrote: post #12

Looking at this from another perspective: As a modern woman who makes good money, I'd be comfortable in theory with marrying a man who makes far less than I do. The problem with that in practice is gender roles in marriage. It's still the norm for women to be responsible for the lion's share of cooking, cleaning, and childrearing. Even in the marriages with the most "woke" husbands I see among my friends, the wife al…

There was a study that showed that the more chores a husband does the less sexually attractive his wife finds him.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/men-who-do-housew...

Re: Why American men are getting less marriageable

#79

Post by moltar »

PuffinBlue wrote: post #20
cimmanom wrote: post #12

Looking at this from another perspective: As a modern woman who makes good money, I'd be comfortable in theory with marrying a man who makes far less than I do. The problem with that in practice is gender roles in marriage. It's still the norm for women to be responsible for the lion's share of cooking, cleaning, and childrearing. Even in the marriages with the most "woke" husbands I see among my friends, the wife al…

> The solution, in my opinion, would be to continue to erase traditional gender roles. If most of the men out there were ready to take on the homemaker role enthusiastically, I would be far more willing to consider them as partners even if they make a fraction of what I do. The solution is not merely one sided. Women must also be willing to 'give up' those roles. Say what you will about men stepping up but my ongoing…

And if we are erasing the gender roles completely, then women should also start fixing faucets, toilets, taking out garbage at night and doing other traditionaly male jobs. So far I have never seen this happen.

Re: Why American men are getting less marriageable

#80

Post by megaman22 »

cimmanom wrote: post #73
hycaria wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a woman, the solution is to know what you want. House care is not an obligation. You can pay people to clean or just accept to have a relative untidyness in your home. You don't have to have children either (which is a burden I don't think is ever equally shared). The problem is the pressure women put on themselves, out of social mimicry. I don't give a shit if I'm not the perfect housekeeper, that's not my goal i…

Not everyone can afford to have someone else clean for them. In fact, those who can afford it are a small and privileged group even in cities like NY and SF where they're relatively highly concentrated. The article above is specifically about average families in parts of the country where jobs paying that kind of money are extremely rare. And if you don't clean a certain minimum amount, yeah, your home gets unhygieni…

Hiring a cleaning service once a month costs as little as $50. It's not really some hoighty-toighty privilege - in fact it's far, far cheaper outside of those NY/SF bubbles.

My mother is a school teacher in rural Maine and hires a lady to vacuum and dust and change the bedding every week.

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