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The U.S. Can No Longer Hide from Its Deep Poverty Problem

nytimes.com

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Re: The U.S. Can No Longer Hide from Its Deep Poverty Problem

#171

Post by raguuu »

brohee wrote: post #29
wildmusings wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Police fighting a class war? The vast majority of those 1000 deaths are unambiguously from the justified use of force, in self-defense and the defense of others. Believe it or not, there’s a lot of violent and bad people out there.

There are countless youtube videos of police arresting violent individuals in Europe where they would just be gunned down in the US. If you want another comparaison, look up dog shooting in the US and in Europe, unless you really believe dogs are somewhat more dangerous in the US, the inescapable conclusion is that American cops enjoy the power trip of gunning down living creatures... And why shouldn't they, it's alm…

It's because we don't have guns. It's absurd to think police could act like that there knowing there are so many armed people. The gun thing is a chicken and egg problem, of course.

Re: The U.S. Can No Longer Hide from Its Deep Poverty Problem

#172

Post by sp332 »

workthrowaway27 wrote: post #166
sp332 wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can certainly avoid building your whole society to perpetuate and amplify inequalities between people. The U.S. constitution was a good step forward but let's not stop challenging inequality where we see it.

I agree partly. Some inequality is certainly immoral, particularly when it's based on a person's race or gender. (And that definitely occurs in the US). But sometimes it comes down to other factors, like intelligence, work ethic, assertiveness, etc. if that's the cause of the inequality and I don't think it's desirable to eliminate it.

Why would those things change who gets paid more for the same work, or who has access to healthcare, or who is going to be hassled on the way to the voting booth, or who gets taken seriously when trying to buy a house, etc.

Re: The U.S. Can No Longer Hide from Its Deep Poverty Problem

#173

Post by moduspol »

_m8fo wrote: post #163
moduspol wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course individuals have different abilities. You're missing the point. The claim is societal. We (as humans) started out with nothing. Over thousands of years, we built religions, governments, businesses, laws, science, and everything else, which ultimately resulted in a lot of us having a lot better quality of life. But our default state (as humans) is to have nothing. That some people are still in poverty should…

Yeah, no. How can you claim we started off with nothing yet say over thousands of years we built things? Clearly we started off with something. You should be more precise in your language. If you change "nothing", with "no possessions, talents, abilities, or skills", which is the same thing, then you'll see why what you're saying is illogical.

> Yeah, no. How can you claim we started off with nothing yet say over thousands of years we built things?

I'm not sure how to respond to this. Have you read a history book? At one point humans were in caves, with effectively no possessions and terrible lives. That was poverty, and it affected everyone. Whether or not one cave man was born smarter than the other is irrelevant.

Over time, we developed all of these systems that made life better for the vast majority of us, yet some of us still live in poverty, because the default human state is to have nothing. That in no way implies a level playing field among two different people born today.

> If you change "nothing", with "no possessions, talents, abilities, or skills", which is the same thing, then you'll see why what you're saying is illogical.

You're still missing the point. I don't know how I can rephrase this in a way that won't be intentionally misinterpreted.

Re: The U.S. Can No Longer Hide from Its Deep Poverty Problem

#174

Post by xya3453 »

woodruffw wrote: post #156
woodruffw wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here we go again. Race correlates strongly with socioeconomic background. Insofar as diversity initiatives are actually attempting to improve the lives of disadvantaged people in this country, arguments like yours amount to relative privation. Heart disease kills more people than lung cancer, but there's nothing wrong with raising money to research lung cancer.

I'm going to post this as a reply with the poster elided, since they deleted it and I think it's important: >> Heart disease kills more people than lung cancer, but there's nothing wrong with raising money to research lung cancer. > The difference is that face of diversity initiatives are zero sum. No, they are not. Hiring someone from a disadvantaged group does not mean that you have to fire someone from a privilege…

> Diversity initiatives level the playing field by increasing opportunities for one group relative to another. That doesn't necessarily mean that the disadvantaged group has more opportunities than the privileged group -- it only means that they have more than they did before.

Most diversity initiatives aren't about equal opportunities but rather equal outcomes.

Re: The U.S. Can No Longer Hide from Its Deep Poverty Problem

#175

Post by pnutjam »

vec wrote: post #149
frgtpsswrdlame wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well Bubba has no more right to a good life than Liu Chu but if you live next door to Bubba and 7000 miles from Liu Chu I think you have a higher duty to him than her. Second, you could consider that Bubba has the ability to vote in US elections and Liu Chu doesn't. Making Liu Chu better off is a nice moral deed, making Bubba better off is not just a nice moral deed but also a political obligation.

Bubba can vote, so he's able to represent his own interests. Liu Chu has no voice in the system. It seems to me that if I have any obligation it would be to advocate for those that cannot advocate for themselves first.

Help given to Liu Chu will by necessity pass through many hands and you have no control over the ethical structure of Liu Chu's society. Helping Bubba is something you can verify, and it will also help Liu Chu when Bubba has more income and can afford to help others.

Re: The U.S. Can No Longer Hide from Its Deep Poverty Problem

#176

Post by grasshopperpurp »

moreorless wrote: post #127
kevingadd wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Diversity is a completely different subject from poverty. They're both subjects worth addressing. Poor black people in the deep south and poor white people in the deep south still live different experiences even if they're both having a hard time. Rich african americans get treated differently from rich white people. This isn't a contest. We need to fix everything.

> Rich african americans get treated differently from rich white people. I am neither a rich white male nor a rich black African American. Can you please elaborate on how they are treated differently?

>Racial slur sprayed on LeBron's house: 'It's tough being black in America'

https://www.cnn.com/2017/05/31/sport/lebron-james-racist-gra...

Re: The U.S. Can No Longer Hide from Its Deep Poverty Problem

#177

Post by kingraoul3 »

ThomPete wrote: post #154
kingraoul3 wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And with a wave of her magic wand and the enunciation of the magic words "Ceteris Paribus", the Free Market Fairy made hookworm in Alabama disappear.

There is a big difference between just saying deep poverty and then qualifying what leads to this deep poverty. Just saying poverty is the cop out here trying to qualify what drives this problem offers at least a way to look at the problem that doesn't end in tax the rich as that will not solve the deep poverty problem.

Meanwhile, in the real world, it is the demand of Capital to grow at %6 a year regardless of the health of the overall economy that is fueling the attacks on the social safety net.

Re: The U.S. Can No Longer Hide from Its Deep Poverty Problem

#178

Post by maze-le »

PacketPaul wrote: post #77
xstartup wrote: post #3

I think in a few years, American will write off all debt. Quantitative Amnesia.

No we will just devalue the currency. There is no reason to default if you can just print more.

>> There is no reason to default if you can just print more.

Sure there is a reason, it is called hyperinflation.

Re: The U.S. Can No Longer Hide from Its Deep Poverty Problem

#179

Post by workthrowaway27 »

sp332 wrote: post #172
workthrowaway27 wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree partly. Some inequality is certainly immoral, particularly when it's based on a person's race or gender. (And that definitely occurs in the US). But sometimes it comes down to other factors, like intelligence, work ethic, assertiveness, etc. if that's the cause of the inequality and I don't think it's desirable to eliminate it.

Why would those things change who gets paid more for the same work, or who has access to healthcare, or who is going to be hassled on the way to the voting booth, or who gets taken seriously when trying to buy a house, etc.

I never made any of those claims, nor do I endorse any of them. I will say that the concept of "same work" is very hard to define, and I don't think you can do so outside of very specific industries that are mostly low skill.
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