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The U.S. Can No Longer Hide from Its Deep Poverty Problem

nytimes.com

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Re: The U.S. Can No Longer Hide from Its Deep Poverty Problem

#151

Post by adamc »

wbl wrote: post #87
frgtpsswrdlame wrote: post #32

This is the other side of globalization. Globalization is super nice when you're secure in your job, "hey everything is getting cheaper!" but when your job is the one in the crosshairs what you're feeling is a pressure that is pushing the living standard of the third world and yours together. That's why I find it so annoying that this board is usually against abundant H1B's but for factory outsourcing. It's completel…

Why should Bubba live a better life then Liu Chu just because he was born in one country and Liu Chu another? Globalization has reduced extreme poverty worldwide, to the point where it will not exist in a few years. Globalization has very little to do with the plights of blacks in the Mississippi Delta. Old fashioned racism and a lack of jobs in sectors which aren't agriculture have a lot more to do with it.

We want all people to do well. But globalization didn't just help Liu Chu -- it helped many people in the U.S. Maybe we should redirect some of that gain back to Bubba.

Re: The U.S. Can No Longer Hide from Its Deep Poverty Problem

#152

Post by badwulf »

gcb0 wrote: post #108
xya3453 wrote: post #99

> Beyond that, many Americans, especially whites with no more than a high school education, have seen worsening health: As my research with my wife, the Princeton economist Anne Case, has demonstrated, for this group life expectancy is falling; mortality rates from drugs, alcohol and suicide are rising Yet in 2018, most diversity initiatives still focus on race regardless of socio-economic background.

you wish. in california high paying companies and universities the talk is still gender. when even rich white woman need a movement, and they do, you realize how behind schedule the US is.

> when even rich white woman need a movement, and they do

They don't, they just need to learn a highly valued skill like everybody else.

Re: The U.S. Can No Longer Hide from Its Deep Poverty Problem

#153

Post by sp332 »

workthrowaway27 wrote: post #147
sp332 wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the point is to get rid of the hierarchy altogether. If you don't have a system of oppression, you don't need to argue over who to point it at.

You can't get rid of hierarchy. It's a natural part of human relationships and how humans organize themselves into societies. To think otherwise is absurd.

You can certainly avoid building your whole society to perpetuate and amplify inequalities between people. The U.S. constitution was a good step forward but let's not stop challenging inequality where we see it.

Re: The U.S. Can No Longer Hide from Its Deep Poverty Problem

#154

Post by ThomPete »

kingraoul3 wrote: post #128
ThomPete wrote: post #107

It's not a poverty problem it's a cost of living problem. Those are two very different things (and becomes more and more severe the poorer you are) You can't outsource your home to China. Globalization does not make every day cheaper it just provides more choices and will in aggregate always increase the cost of living. So as long as your job/income is on the right side of the rise of the cost of living you are fine…

And with a wave of her magic wand and the enunciation of the magic words "Ceteris Paribus", the Free Market Fairy made hookworm in Alabama disappear.

There is a big difference between just saying deep poverty and then qualifying what leads to this deep poverty.

Just saying poverty is the cop out here trying to qualify what drives this problem offers at least a way to look at the problem that doesn't end in tax the rich as that will not solve the deep poverty problem.

Re: The U.S. Can No Longer Hide from Its Deep Poverty Problem

#155

Post by randomdata »

_m8fo wrote: post #146
randomdata wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This discussion is specially about wealth. Fetal alcohol syndrome is not usually added as a liability on a balance sheet, even if it is liability to everyday living. Everyone starts with a balance of $0. > Why do people insist on believing nonsense? Why are people trying to twist this discussion into things it never was?

Nothing is being twisted. If what you mean is that two babies have the same amount of money in their bank accounts, then that's what you should say. Of course, if one said that they would be ignored as that much is obvious. What you should not say is that "they both start off with nothing". Wealth is more than money. In fact, wealth literally just means an abundance of possessions; prosperity. What dictionary are you…

> If what you mean is that two babies have the same amount of money in their bank accounts, then that's what you should say.

But wealth isn't an amount in a bank account? Given the earlier context of this thread, I felt my comment should have been clear enough, but granted textual communication can be difficult (especially for emotional topics where many have their response composed well in advance) and clearly I failed. I tried to clarify it on several other occasions before you commented, so any errors in conveying my original message should have been resolved before you posted yours, no?

> Wealth is more than money

Money being only a tool of measurement, I think that is a given. But that is like saying that the weather is more than temperature. Sure, but what are we supposed to take from that?

Re: The U.S. Can No Longer Hide from Its Deep Poverty Problem

#156

Post by woodruffw »

woodruffw wrote: post #130
xya3453 wrote: post #99

> Beyond that, many Americans, especially whites with no more than a high school education, have seen worsening health: As my research with my wife, the Princeton economist Anne Case, has demonstrated, for this group life expectancy is falling; mortality rates from drugs, alcohol and suicide are rising Yet in 2018, most diversity initiatives still focus on race regardless of socio-economic background.

Here we go again. Race correlates strongly with socioeconomic background. Insofar as diversity initiatives are actually attempting to improve the lives of disadvantaged people in this country, arguments like yours amount to relative privation. Heart disease kills more people than lung cancer, but there's nothing wrong with raising money to research lung cancer.

I'm going to post this as a reply with the poster elided, since they deleted it and I think it's important:

>> Heart disease kills more people than lung cancer, but there's nothing wrong with raising money to research lung cancer.

> The difference is that face of diversity initiatives are zero sum.

No, they are not. Hiring someone from a disadvantaged group does not mean that you have to fire someone from a privileged group. That is what a zero-sum scenario would require.

Diversity initiatives level the playing field by increasing opportunities for one group relative to another. That doesn't necessarily mean that the disadvantaged group has more opportunities than the privileged group -- it only means that they have more than they did before.

Re: The U.S. Can No Longer Hide from Its Deep Poverty Problem

#157

Post by [deleted] »

woodruffw wrote: post #130
xya3453 wrote: post #99

> Beyond that, many Americans, especially whites with no more than a high school education, have seen worsening health: As my research with my wife, the Princeton economist Anne Case, has demonstrated, for this group life expectancy is falling; mortality rates from drugs, alcohol and suicide are rising Yet in 2018, most diversity initiatives still focus on race regardless of socio-economic background.

Here we go again. Race correlates strongly with socioeconomic background. Insofar as diversity initiatives are actually attempting to improve the lives of disadvantaged people in this country, arguments like yours amount to relative privation. Heart disease kills more people than lung cancer, but there's nothing wrong with raising money to research lung cancer.

[deleted]

Re: The U.S. Can No Longer Hide from Its Deep Poverty Problem

#158

Post by moduspol »

_m8fo wrote: post #129
moduspol wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the point is being missed here. In an inherent sense , humans start with nothing. We (as a society) have hospitals available which greatly decrease infant mortality. We have widely available nutrition that keeps people from starving. These are steps that we, as a society, have taken to improve upon the default state (having nothing) of humans--including fetal health. Perhaps rather than focusing on how to mak…

In no sense do people start off with nothing. People start off with the abilities or lack thereof possessed at birth. Compare a child with fetal alcohol syndrome with one without it. Do both start off with nothing? No. Clearly one has something the other does not. Why do people insist on believing nonsense?

Of course individuals have different abilities. You're missing the point.

The claim is societal. We (as humans) started out with nothing. Over thousands of years, we built religions, governments, businesses, laws, science, and everything else, which ultimately resulted in a lot of us having a lot better quality of life. But our default state (as humans) is to have nothing. That some people are still in poverty shouldn't be seen like a disease to be treated--it should be seen as a condition all humans effectively default to. They just haven't benefited from all the systems and processes we've built that the rest of us have, and we should figure out how to get them to (or modify our systems so they do).

Again: This is in no way claiming each person starts on a level playing field.

Re: The U.S. Can No Longer Hide from Its Deep Poverty Problem

#159

Post by jacquesm »

Mediterraneo10 wrote: post #60
mikejb wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting isn't the word I'd use, but I understand what you mean. I really hope that a third party will start to grow. Whilst it may have benefits, I think the two-party-system feeds a lot into the "with me or against me" concept.

> I really hope that a third party will start to grow. Third parties don’t thrive in countries with first-past-the-post voting and without a tradition of coalition-making. In order for the USA to reach a point where it could have more than a two-party system, it would have to completely remake its governmental structure, and “very interesting” is an appropriate euphemism for what things would be like if it ever came…

And it would have to get rid of money in politics.

Re: The U.S. Can No Longer Hide from Its Deep Poverty Problem

#160

Post by sidlls »

RandomTisk wrote: post #137
sidlls wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This sort of comparison is terrible because it trivializes the miserable existence of our impoverished and implies they should be thankful they aren't "beggars in Dehli."

It doesn't imply anything, it flat out says it, being poor in America is vastly more comfortable and healthy than Dehli. Notice he didn't say "So don't worry about our poor at all.", just put it into perspective. The facts are, if you want to help the most unfortunate human beings, they're more likely to be in Dehli.

The comparison serves no purpose other than to suggest that the impoverished American should be grateful he's not a "beggar in Dehli." It's not some clinical fact devoid of context.
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