[deleted]
The radical idea of a world without jobs
131–140 of 260 posts
Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs
#132Earlier quoted context omitted.
I find the use of this statistic really frustrating, if you're say an average westerner with $10,000 of debt and $2,000 savings - your net wealth is -$8,000. If on the other hand you sift through garbage somewhere in Africa and earn 50c per day your net wealth is ~$0. By this metric the garbage site worker is wealthier than the Westerner fresh from university.
Well they are more wealthier till that debt is paid off. However, the metric does not include cash flow. The westerner has a greater cash flow than the person in Africa. However, what happen if that person looses their job? Suddenly, their quality life will probably drop. They might even end homeless unable to pay rent. However, the westerner is probably better off overall.
It's all the wealth around you including the infrastructure that you can partially take advantage of that the African probably lacks.
Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs
#133Am I the only one who likes work? And I don’t mean my job, just work in general.
I also like work.
It's just that five days a week, I have to stop working and go to my job :)
Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs
#134I don't see how a jobless steady state is compatible with the zero-sum game that is the natural desire, in all of us, for power and sex.
Yes that is in essence all that needs to be said. Work is just one manifestation of competition between individuals driving us to outdo others.
Of course if we weren't occupied by work all day then we'll find something else to compete in and "stress" ourselves about. And don't we already do this to some extent through innumerable athletic/mental feats like climbing mountains, and other ways that are essentially displays of wealth like a vacation in Haiti and so on. This is a simplification, one can successfully argue that many of these activities have "inherent" benefit besides signaling but that aspect is usually not spoken of at all so I emphasize it more here.
So the stressors of everyday life (whether they come from work or other means of competition) are an inescapable fact of human life. Too bad if you don't like it.
Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs
#135This is a good first -radical- approach, although I'm sure that the way to go is a world without money (or any exchange currency for that matter).
Instead,a world where you "work" in anything you really like (without having to worry about getting paid or not), where everything is virtually "free" and achievable, as long as you mantain an active "working" status. Think of it as a 1 - working, 0 - not working. If you are in 1 status, you can acquire anything you need (and even want) in modic proportions.
More to elaborate later on.
Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs
#136Earlier quoted context omitted.
He, and Keynes' prediction of 15 hour work weeks, were largely right. We spend quite few hours in the week doing the work we need for basic shelter, food and security, at least to a 1845/1930 standard. You could theoretically live in a simple house in a non-congested corner of countryside and feed a small family simple food on perhaps a days average wages a week (there are some logistics around actually getting someo…
Not really - you can't choose to work 15 hour weeks at most places, even if that is all the money you need. I know if I could CHOOSE to work 20hrs/week and get paid half the salary I definitely would, but that's not an option for 99% of us. I prioritize time over luxuries, but employers still dictate the terms.
Interestingly, you're legally allowed to ask for this in the UK (it's still at the employer's discretion, but more places, especially large ones, will actively consider it if you're worth keeping).
I chose to alter mine slightly, cutting from 37.5 to 35 (I could have gone properly part-time to 20 if I didn't need the money), and everything is just pro rated.
Perhaps it's a Europe vs US thing, but it's fairly common to request changes to your career design to allow for flexible working. Obviously it works best for knowledge worker jobs, but it's also applicable to all kinds of shift-pattern work too.
The argument of course is that if you need multiple people to cover the role, the overhead cost is more. However, on a twofold point: many employers know about the BS around productive hours and don't always need cover (I work with people who work shorter hours than I and they aren't covered), and larger organisations (the unsexy ones) can abosrb this without barely a glance.
Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs
#137Earlier quoted context omitted.
No, everyone likes work. We call it "hobbies" when its not formally productive and "vocations" when it is. Capitalism, as a system, is awful at allocating this work that people love to the people who love it. They either can't at all, or they are forced to fit it around wasted time, or they have to gamble on trying to build it up from nothing, and often losing their stake and their beloved work.
If everyone did what they wanted to do all of the time, the world would simply cease to function.
The utopia vision as I understand it behind UBI is that automation takes care of most / all of the work people don't want to do.
I think the biggest challenge to this utopia vision (assuming automation gets to this point) is more that, frankly, labor is not wealth. Land is land for instance regardless of what is automated or not. Rent seeking for various things is rather common, most of which automation will not touch. I can envision strong resistance to any sort of UBI scheme from this group (some of this group frankly seem to not even care for our current safety nets now).
Before we go through a true "post work" phase, we'll probably go through a phase where service oriented jobs are the norm -- this is also harder to automate away completely, although probably not near impossible like tackling assets and rent-seeking. The main problem here is that this side of the workforce is currently rather undervalued IMHO. So if one wants improvements in the world of work, I personally think putting more efforts here would be better vs. banking on UBI.
Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs
#138Work is power.
The obsolescence of humans in the workforce means that we are gradually being stripped of the power to put a roof over our heads and bread in our plates while capital becomes independent.
At this point, feeding non-productive humans still benefit the economy (by preventing riots and allowing the productive individuals to contribute), but if the vast majority of humanity does not participate in the economy anymore, I don't see why the market would keep on feeding it. And at that point we would be so dependent on automation that we'd all starve to death.
Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs
#139Earlier quoted context omitted.
I've been calling amazon prime a "hiding of the poor" to my friends and family. Hide the laborers in a far off insanely demanding warehouse, you just get the goods. (I don't have prime, I don't use prime, and I don't want this to be our future.)
Yes, this is exactly it. Slavery was distasteful so we used the modern economy to abstract the slavery out of sight, hide it under the rug. One click buy! Pay no attention to the machine behind the curtain. Wish Amazon would offer an entirely "Made in first world with protected workers" store.
How does that help a poor worker in Bangladesh?
In many of these countries people voluntarily choose to work in these factories. They're terrible places to work, but apparently its still better than working in the fields.
A more effective strategy might be something like: https://www.ijm.org/who-we-are . They work within these countries to protect workers from the worst human rights abuses. (ie child sex trafficking and slavery)
Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs
#140I’m stuck in a dead end job right now. I will never be granted a shred of decision making capacity or autonomy. It is a waiting game. Waiting for more assignments. Waiting until 5PM. Waiting for my paycheck. Waiting to get fired. Waiting to retire. Waiting to die. ( n * (Commute. Sit. Wait. Commute. Eat. Sleep.)) Die. Where n == the days I have left in this world. The things I work on feel like absurd, meaningless bo…
At the risk of sounding banal, I believe it's worth checking to see if you have a severe depression. Because that's how depression feels. There are people out there who derive great pleasure from writing uninspired code. Not only doesn't work need to be the main source of meaning in your live (in addition to providing income), its perceived value is heavily dependent on your psychological and physiologial condition. In fact, I'm afraid that, thae way you are now, you might not be able to enjoy yourself even if your situation changed for the better.
This is a bleak message, yet it's true: most people do not like their jobs very much. They can just deal with it because they're not totally depressed. And the reason is, surprisingly often, simple brain chemistry. At least try some more roads before talking of suicide.