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The radical idea of a world without jobs

theguardian.com

81–90 of 260 posts

Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs

#81
In a world without jobs, there would still be projects. It's a fallacy the idea that people will not create things if they're not compelled by the risk of starving to death.

The problem preventing a jobless society is the reverse: what happens to you if your personal projects are not valued by society enough to pay you for them, and therefore you can't sustain yourself from them?

Someone without the skills to create marketable projects can decide to work towards projects created by others, and be compensated for it; that's what a "job" is.

For a jobless society, you should be able to pursue your own projects without starving in case that they do not sell. These projects may involve pursuing leisure, starting charitable deeds, or taking care of your family, all without the direct beneficiaries paying for it. For this to happen, we should:

1) find a way to provide a basic livelihood for everyone in that situation (Basic Income is the most talked about); and

2) value people pursuing their own projects, more than we value people being the most productive* they can possibly be.

*(where "productive" is defined as "building stuff that people will pay for". This is the most common understanding of productivity, but I find it somewhat circular).

In essence, in order to exist, a jobless society should value you being happy more than it values you accelerating the velocity of commercial capital. This doesn't require radically new economic theories; but it requires an adjustment of the parameters by which we measure "efficiency" in what we consider an "efficient economy".

Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs

#82

I’m stuck in a dead end job right now. I will never be granted a shred of decision making capacity or autonomy. It is a waiting game. Waiting for more assignments. Waiting until 5PM. Waiting for my paycheck. Waiting to get fired. Waiting to retire. Waiting to die. ( n * (Commute. Sit. Wait. Commute. Eat. Sleep.)) Die. Where n == the days I have left in this world. The things I work on feel like absurd, meaningless bo…

I had similar thoughts about the meaning of it all. But I didn't question life per se, I questioned the rat race. "Why am I working all day?", "Why do I spend the best parts of the day in an office?", "Why can't I still afford a house even though I make good money?" and questions of that nature.

I wasn't as unhappy as you sound, I just didn't see the purpose of it (working) anymore.

And so I decided not to do it anymore. Instead, I've decided to buy a small amount of land, live sustainibly, start a market garden, and spend much more time with my family and integrate with nature more.

Life isn't bad, but it sounds like you're stuck in a rut. Perhaps you just need to find your passion, and make a plan to transition from where you are now, to where you want to be?

Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs

#83

Unpopular opinion: It is easy to work less or nearly work nothing and still get by fine (in the context of the modern western world!), the issue is more that people spend their money in bad ways and make bad long term decisions. If you live reasonable and don't spend money on things you don't need you also don't need to work so much...And I often heard from people now "I don't even know why I work so much, I don't ne…

You've lived a charmingly sheltered life if you believe the majority of people live in that situation. The social support and education that allow people to easily survive while hardly working are not evenly distributed throughout society.

Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs

#84
post #45

This glorious utopia will last for all of five minutes until the last surviving SJW decides robots need rights. And honestly, would xir be wrong? If we ever get to the point where robots can fully take over most human jobs even intellectual ones, we will have had to reach a level of artificial intelligence where even many not so radical religions and philosophies will wonder whether we are exploiting them. When Tesla…

This gets into how you identify a human (I'm saying for the sake of simplicity that humans are the only things eligible for rights, and ignoring animal rights and such) Is there something inherently human about humans? How about coma patients whose functions are limited? Is there some necessary set of functions a thing must have to qualify as a human? That seems to get into dangerous territory for some handicapped people.

The reason this matters is it's conceivable that an AI in a robotic frame could emulate practically all the behaviors we associate with a human (including behavior to display artifacts humans interpret as emotions, like smiling or crying). At that point, is such a thing a human? Or is it merely a fully-realized model of one? Does it make a difference?

This is the subject of tons of speculative science fiction. From a strictly computer science perspective, though, you can easily define a "square" class that fully implements all the behaviors of the geometric concept of a square. That doesn't make instances of it a square, though. They're merely digital models of squares. This is also the significance of the famous "There is no spoon" scene in The Matrix, when Neo has a realization that everything in the Matrix is a model which he can reach into and alter the properties of. Therefore, there's a strong argument to be made that from an objective perspective, even an AI that perfectly mimics human behavior is just a perfect model and not a human. However, humans being emotional creatures the objective argument will almost certainly not matter in that scenario.

This also has implications for the science fiction concept of "copied personalities", which Black Mirror loves playing with. If you make a digital copy of someone's mind, do they still have rights? I'd argue no for the above reasons, but again, there's an emotional angle which will usually override the scientific angle.

Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs

#85
post #23

Am I the only one who likes work? And I don’t mean my job, just work in general.

No, everyone likes work. We call it "hobbies" when its not formally productive and "vocations" when it is. Capitalism, as a system, is awful at allocating this work that people love to the people who love it. They either can't at all, or they are forced to fit it around wasted time, or they have to gamble on trying to build it up from nothing, and often losing their stake and their beloved work.

Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs

#86
post #34

Comes down to urban planning, the west is depressing because you move from box to box in your mobile box. If the systems were less efficient we would rely on each other more and perhaps feel useful, a third world city is a great place to live, mentally.

A former Turkish colleague who moved from Turkey to Germany told me the same. The material side of things is covered well in Germany. And because of this, because basically everyone has all their needs covered by the system, people do not need to rely on each other – and they don’t. The vast majority has the means to help themselves and never have to ask anyone else for help.

My colleague felt alone, even though he lived with his girlfriend. I think our material abundance fosters isolation. There is no reason go to your neighbor and knock on their door. You live isolated in your home, you move anonymously through traffic, you work in a closed environment, you go home, and the cycle repeats. There is little room for accidentally making friends or even just having conversations.

Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs

#87
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you know that 8 people in the world have as much wealth as 3.6 BILLION people. That inequality is STAGGERING. Where do you think the problem lies?

I find the use of this statistic really frustrating, if you're say an average westerner with $10,000 of debt and $2,000 savings - your net wealth is -$8,000. If on the other hand you sift through garbage somewhere in Africa and earn 50c per day your net wealth is ~$0. By this metric the garbage site worker is wealthier than the Westerner fresh from university.

Well they are more wealthier till that debt is paid off. However, the metric does not include cash flow. The westerner has a greater cash flow than the person in Africa. However, what happen if that person looses their job? Suddenly, their quality life will probably drop. They might even end homeless unable to pay rent. However, the westerner is probably better off overall.

Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs

#88
post #59

Forceful reorganization of society inevitably turns into bloodshed in 100% of cases, and that rarely improves standards of living. The human civilization is in a state of constant chaos and nobody can tell or influence where it will be taken next. Accidental discoveries and pointless inventions have shaped our culture, and with it our minds and way of life with nobody being able to predict or control them. It's like…

Reorganization of society need not be implemented in a top-down manner. Encouraging small changes in the activities of individuals can gradually sum to major changes over time. We have the brainpower to enact a project of this type, not every revolution has to be at gunpoint.

Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs

#89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If actual slaves were able to escape and make their way to freedom and satisfying lives, then surely office workers can do the same.

Ah yes "if your life sucks, just be one of the small percentage of people who succeed in overcoming the massive challenges stacked against you, there's nothing unreasonable about expecting that out of every individual". Unless, of course, you're saying we need to start a civil war to free all the office workers...

If your life sucks so bad that you're sitting on Friday morning posting to a place called Hacker News, then your life really doesn't suck that much. You've already got more than most ever had, so leverage that.

Not a fan of learned helplessness or woe is me. If you want to change, you can. It might not be easy but if you feel like waiting until you die, there's not much to lose, anyway.

What does saying "my life sucks" solve? The world isn't kind to most people, you have to make the most out of it.

Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs

#90
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These conversations I feel always seem shallow to me. Automation is definitely helping to free us from a lot of work.. but the world we live in today feels like a preview of what an automated world feels like. In reality, our material lifestyle is still supported by a very large number of people working away in countries most Americans can't find on a map for extremely low wages. If we're going to talk about "reorgan…

Do you know that 8 people in the world have as much wealth as 3.6 BILLION people. That inequality is STAGGERING. Where do you think the problem lies?

Well, using figures from http://time.com/money/4746795/richest-people-in-the-world/, if we take the top eight, sum their fortunes (conveniently expressed in billions), and divide by 3.6, we find that a maximally equitable redistribution would allocate, to each of the lucky recipients, the princely sum of $165.38 US.

So, I'm going to guess the problem may lie somewhere other than with eight really rich people. But we don't really need to do the math on this one, do we? It doesn't even pass the sniff test - "these eight people are LITERALLY THE WORST" is just far too uncomplicated a proposition to accurately reflect the reality of a human world which, though many things, is never simple.

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