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The radical idea of a world without jobs

theguardian.com

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Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs

#51

Post by adrianN »

swalsh wrote: post #26
fergie wrote: post #11

"Work is badly distributed. People have too much, or too little, or both in the same month. And away from our unpredictable, all-consuming workplaces, vital human activities are increasingly neglected. Workers lack the time or energy to raise children attentively, or to look after elderly relations. “The crisis of work is also a crisis of home,” ... This neglect will only get worse as the population grows and ages."…

These conversations I feel always seem shallow to me. Automation is definitely helping to free us from a lot of work.. but the world we live in today feels like a preview of what an automated world feels like. In reality, our material lifestyle is still supported by a very large number of people working away in countries most Americans can't find on a map for extremely low wages. If we're going to talk about "reorgan…

Such improvements tend to spread from rich to poor. People in developing countries choose those horrible factory jobs because they're still better than subsistence farming. China is lifting huge numbers of people from abject poverty every year. Eventually wages rise.

Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs

#52

Post by pbhjpbhj »

mseebach wrote: post #27
sirmoveon wrote: post #19

The world will never be without jobs; work will just become detached from financial productivity and wellbeing

It already it. Most people middle class and up work way more than they strictly need to for simple wellbeing. It's just that our standards and expectation for wellbeing shifts, and shifts quickly.

I'd say "are in the workplace way more" ...

>"Now, the workday is ripe for another disruption. Research suggests that in an eight-hour day, the average worker is only productive for two hours and 53 minutes." https://www.inc.com/melanie-curtin/in-an-8-hour-day-the-aver... //

Other studies show the most productive workers take long breaks (~25% of working time).

Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs

#53

Post by nickthemagicman »

swalsh wrote: post #26
fergie wrote: post #11

"Work is badly distributed. People have too much, or too little, or both in the same month. And away from our unpredictable, all-consuming workplaces, vital human activities are increasingly neglected. Workers lack the time or energy to raise children attentively, or to look after elderly relations. “The crisis of work is also a crisis of home,” ... This neglect will only get worse as the population grows and ages."…

These conversations I feel always seem shallow to me. Automation is definitely helping to free us from a lot of work.. but the world we live in today feels like a preview of what an automated world feels like. In reality, our material lifestyle is still supported by a very large number of people working away in countries most Americans can't find on a map for extremely low wages. If we're going to talk about "reorgan…

Do you know that 8 people in the world have as much wealth as 3.6 BILLION people. That inequality is STAGGERING.

Where do you think the problem lies?

Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs

#54

Post by aaron-lebo »

aalleavitch wrote: post #40
aaron-lebo wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What makes you stuck? You sound like you've accepted your fate. If you want to change things, just do it. If your reality is so bad that you want to die, then how is taking action to potentially change things worse? A big part of this discussion is people want meaningful work and a meaningful life, but they want other people to give it to them. Why is that expected?

Some people get caught in situations where furthering their career and eating next week are mutually exclusive propositions.

If actual slaves were able to escape and make their way to freedom and satisfying lives, then surely office workers can do the same.

Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs

#55

Post by aalleavitch »

Radim wrote: post #44
aalleavitch wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Our success at combating strict gender roles that kept women out of the workplace hasn't been matched with a social embrace of stay-at-home dads or other family members who don't work in order to focus on helping care for their loved ones. Unfortunately, instead we've ended up with a society where everyone is just expected to work all the time. There needs to be less stigma against people without jobs. We need to sto…

Do you mean to say "for a short-term, monetary profit"? Because there are other types of profit, more subjective ones, like feeling good, emotional well-being, long-term sustainability etc, which are more elusive by definition but nevertheless super important. Because if you're really talking about a lack "profit" in the very general (aka inviting a straight loss), then the question simply becomes: Who will pay for t…

I think you answered this question yourself: some forms of value are subjective. Some vitally important benefits to the people around you don't show up on a balance sheet. People will gladly pay to be a patron of the arts, or just to make someone they like happy, and it doesn't have to involve a quantifiable return on investment.

Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs

#56

Post by pbhjpbhj »

zaptheimpaler wrote: post #42
mseebach wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He, and Keynes' prediction of 15 hour work weeks, were largely right. We spend quite few hours in the week doing the work we need for basic shelter, food and security, at least to a 1845/1930 standard. You could theoretically live in a simple house in a non-congested corner of countryside and feed a small family simple food on perhaps a days average wages a week (there are some logistics around actually getting someo…

Not really - you can't choose to work 15 hour weeks at most places, even if that is all the money you need. I know if I could CHOOSE to work 20hrs/week and get paid half the salary I definitely would, but that's not an option for 99% of us. I prioritize time over luxuries, but employers still dictate the terms.

3 employees doing 20hrs costs more than one doing 60hrs even if the pay is the same. That said I'd expect 3 employees to also bring more value and have greater productivity.

Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs

#57

Post by yoz-y »

zaptheimpaler wrote: post #42
mseebach wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He, and Keynes' prediction of 15 hour work weeks, were largely right. We spend quite few hours in the week doing the work we need for basic shelter, food and security, at least to a 1845/1930 standard. You could theoretically live in a simple house in a non-congested corner of countryside and feed a small family simple food on perhaps a days average wages a week (there are some logistics around actually getting someo…

Not really - you can't choose to work 15 hour weeks at most places, even if that is all the money you need. I know if I could CHOOSE to work 20hrs/week and get paid half the salary I definitely would, but that's not an option for 99% of us. I prioritize time over luxuries, but employers still dictate the terms.

This case would probably be easier as self-employed, but then the income is not guaranteed.

Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs

#59

Post by nukeop »

Forceful reorganization of society inevitably turns into bloodshed in 100% of cases, and that rarely improves standards of living. The human civilization is in a state of constant chaos and nobody can tell or influence where it will be taken next. Accidental discoveries and pointless inventions have shaped our culture, and with it our minds and way of life with nobody being able to predict or control them. It's like a childhood fantasy - when I'm the king I'll make you all...

Society cannot be ruled in a top-down manner, period.

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