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As Flow of Foreign Students Wanes, U.S. Universities Feel the Sting

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Re: As Flow of Foreign Students Wanes, U.S. Universities Feel the Sting

#231

Post by BeetleB »

whack wrote: post #220
pkaye wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder how many of these students come primarily for the subsequent job opportunities. If they were able to come for the education but not the subsequent OPT, would they still be willing to come? I've seen the tuition some of them paying like $50k/year and not sure how they can afford it unless they are hoping for big returns afterwards.

You just answered your own question. If the only thing they cared about was the OPT, why would they pay $50k/year to attend a well-known university, when they can instead pay a fraction of that to attend a university no one knows about, and still get the OPT.

Because of a perception that they won't get a job if they go to an unknown university.

Re: As Flow of Foreign Students Wanes, U.S. Universities Feel the Sting

#232

Post by 123ol12313 »

netheril96 wrote: post #213
sombremesa wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All you have to do is get married to an American. You could be the best and brightest or the dumb and dullest, won't matter.

Indian/Chinese men are much less desired than whites and sometimes blacks and latinos in the US dating market. Marrying an American is probably harder than alternative approaches, at least for males from these countries.

I am sorry, but this is utter crap. Who's perspective are you viewing this from, because it sounds racist.

Re: As Flow of Foreign Students Wanes, U.S. Universities Feel the Sting

#233

Post by projectramo »

xkcd-sucks wrote: post #85
lewis500 wrote: post #40

There are really three different downsides to this. First, the foreign students cross-subsidize the locals' education. There are large fixed costs to running a university and these students pay way above their marginal costs. So now the universities have fewer resources; hence cutting the newspaper funding etc. Second, the foreign students increase the schools' reputations and can collaborate with the faculty. Resear…

So besides the loss in basic research, is it bad that universities should get squeezed? ...in a universe where superfluous administration is cut first, it is not.

From what I have seen, admin is pretty lean at colleges and universities. Someone has to do all the work of deciding the curriculum, the change in fees, raising funds, awarding scholarships, recruiting and paying staff, coming up with programs and so forth.

Re: As Flow of Foreign Students Wanes, U.S. Universities Feel the Sting

#234

Post by Helmet »

crankylinuxuser wrote: post #209
pm90 wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you read the article, you will see a that a lot of professors in more artistic fields (and many such programs) are being shut down. I don't think that is what you want from a University.

Well, the Arts sure doesn't bring in any great and amazing new works, nor does it really make money. So yeah, trash it and most "liberal arts". They're not STEM, and they're a sinkhole for money.... (Karl Marx warned of this, as capitalism only sees value in what produces more value. Artistic and liberal arts value is harder to calculate, thus pointless)

Liberal arts education is essential if our goal is to have a well-rounded, educated, ethical, and cultured citizenry.

But, of course, this would mean that the liberal arts would have to actually go back to teaching the Western canon, and not simply using their positions as educators to repudiate Western and European art and culture at any turn, to radicalize students and spew their ideological fantasies, to engage in censorship and stoke racial tensions, and, this should go without saying, stop committing acts of physical assault, such as smashing people in the head with metal bike-locks, when they disagree with you (Eric Clanton, Tariq Khan, Eric Canin..etc).

These are just suggestions of course, I'm sure the enlightened intelligentsia will find its way.

Re: As Flow of Foreign Students Wanes, U.S. Universities Feel the Sting

#235

Post by acover »

dragonwriter wrote: post #224
acover wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The party making the claim is using anecdotal evidence. They have no data. I do not think anecdotal evidence is good evidence for such a strong claim. This makes the claim an opinion and not factual. This is only my opinion.

> The party making the claim is using anecdotal evidence. No, the party making the fact claim made a fact claim limited to a particular program they had been in, and has, as yet, neither provided evidence (or even an operationalization) for that claim not been challenged to do so. > They have no data. That may or may not be the case; it's perfectly fine to dismiss the claim due to lack of data, better to challenge th…

The claim was:

> Second, the foreign students increase the schools' reputations and can collaborate with the faculty. Research is a public good.

Their evidence for the claim was personal experience.

A claim about a matter of fact is not a fact. A fact needs evidence. Otherwise it's just nonsense.

Re: As Flow of Foreign Students Wanes, U.S. Universities Feel the Sting

#236

Post by seanmcdirmid »

chroem- wrote: post #55
curiousgal wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am yet to meet a single American who didn’t have access to college because of an international student. High tuition and fees are always the number one culprit.

Come to Washington State. The University of Washington's preference to international students over in-state has become so lopsided that the state legislature has been threatening to cut off funding and force the school to change its name. Most of my in-state friends were denied admission into their majors during undergrad.

The legislature would actually fund UW at an adequate level, it might be a valid threat.

Also, if you want to get into UW, try being from Eastern Washington. There is a quota.

Re: As Flow of Foreign Students Wanes, U.S. Universities Feel the Sting

#237

Post by [deleted] »

nopinsight wrote: post #46
maoistinquisitr wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably the opposite. American students with options are deliberately avoiding the fields the foreign students crowd because of the wage and working conditions suppression the added competition produces. Deliberately discouraging the huge numbers of foreign students will help better cultivate greater American talent. A talent pool of 320 million people is plenty. We don't need to scour the globe.

You may wish to look at recent performance of different countries in academic competitions like International Math Olympiad and International Physics Olympiad for some objective metrics: https://imo-official.org/year_country_r.aspx?year=2017 http://www.ipho2017.id/home#official-results-of-ipho-2017 The US ranks decently but behind China, Russia, and Vietnam, in both subjects.

[deleted]

Re: As Flow of Foreign Students Wanes, U.S. Universities Feel the Sting

#238

Post by seanmcdirmid »

pm90 wrote: post #205
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Regarding PhDs, grad international enrollment is declining. Your source on that? All the schools I’m in contact with are still as international as ever in their CS PhD departments. I’m not sure what the trends are outside of CS, but I can’t imagine they would be very different. I think you are just pulling this number out of thin air. Research is funded quite differently from undergrad programs. Sure, fewer TAships…

> Your source on that? All the schools I’m in contact with are still as international as ever in their CS PhD departments. I’m not sure what the trends are outside of CS, but I can’t imagine they would be very different. I think you are just pulling this number out of thin air. So you're asking for a source when your own view is based on anecdotes? Great.

Yes, the number of international graduate students is at an all time in 2016, and I’m sure for 2017 also. It isn’t rocket science:

https://www.migrationpolicy.org/article/international-studen...

Growth has been falling, but that wasn’t the claim that was made, which was actually ridiculous.

Re: As Flow of Foreign Students Wanes, U.S. Universities Feel the Sting

#239

Post by wenc »

rdtsc wrote: post #227
pm90 wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Well any out-of-state student would do that not just international ones. There is a deeper problem there in that these universities perhaps simply can't afford to have 10 foreign languages or gyms or sports clubs. Using international students to keep those going seems a bit of a round-about way. Since many of those are state schools, maybe seeing why the states have cut funding to the schools is more useful. Tell m…

> Tell me why out of state students will pay significantly higher tuition when they can get a cheaper education in their State College? Because states are different? Wouldn't you say OK, NY, CA are different states with different universities, budgets, students, cultures etc. Why is it surprising that a student from Mississippi might want to go to UC Berkeley? > And are you saying that the State University wouldn't p…

> Besides passing TOEFL and showing up with a full tuition check what are the merit requirements is needed. You'd probably say high school grades, but I remember just handing them a hand written note from my high school principal which I translated myself and he signed. They didn't need SAT or ACT scores even. Maybe they do now, I didn't check.

If this is your experience, it sounds like you are baselining your opinions on less reputable U.S. universities (and there are quite a few of them around. The U.S. has over 3000 colleges.)

In most decent universities, you absolutely cannot be admitted without the right grades. In most competitive state colleges, international students actually require better (average) grades than locals for admission because they are placed in a separate, smaller pool of applicants. In-state applicants are often given priority.

Re: As Flow of Foreign Students Wanes, U.S. Universities Feel the Sting

#240

Post by deegles »

quickben wrote: post #93
fellellor wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>go back home for a job Haha. Not really. American salaries, standards of living are among the highest/best in the planet. Plus an abundance of economic opportunities and relatively low discrimination compared to what one may face in other developed countries. These are the only factors which decide whether a family sends their kid to the US for higher ed or not. The degrees themselves aren't worth much at all. Unles…

My old country gave to whoever returns home with a foreign degree up to 95% salary match from what they would have made if they stayed. You can rack $100k USD, in a country where average yearly salary is $2k and living expenses are nil. When you talk about 'standard of living', imagine what standard of living you'd have in USA at 50x average salary. If I'm not mistaken that would be around 1-2 million a year. Add to…

I wouldn't move back home even with a 100% salary match.
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