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As Flow of Foreign Students Wanes, U.S. Universities Feel the Sting

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Re: As Flow of Foreign Students Wanes, U.S. Universities Feel the Sting

#81

Post by xkcd-sucks »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #53
lewis500 wrote: post #40

There are really three different downsides to this. First, the foreign students cross-subsidize the locals' education. There are large fixed costs to running a university and these students pay way above their marginal costs. So now the universities have fewer resources; hence cutting the newspaper funding etc. Second, the foreign students increase the schools' reputations and can collaborate with the faculty. Resear…

> In my own PhD program, the productivity of the Americans was much lower than the foreigners. I think the bias has swung way too far the other way. Racism against Americans is still racism. Also, this applies mainly to undergrads (full paying students), not PhD students who are generally fully funded.

You have to be crazy (e.g. addicted to the process of a research career) or clueless to start a PhD unless it figures your path to citizenship, so yeah most american PhD students are probably not the best and brightest assuming the talented crazies are a minority.

Re: As Flow of Foreign Students Wanes, U.S. Universities Feel the Sting

#82

Post by mc32 »

fellellor wrote: post #75
janekm wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You underestimate the value of an “overseas” degree in “developing” countries like China. A student who comes back to China with a US/UK degree will get preferential access to first-tier city resident permits, direct financial “housing” benefits from the city, a good job and faster career advancement and more besides. Some of those benefits are starting to get scaled back but it’s still a big advantage.

Sounds like in the current environment those are no longer advantages, considering China is home to some very good universities herself. Also these degrees don't offer any substantial advantage in any of the other countries you mentioned.

Those good universities have caps and very tough entry exams. People who go to Midwestern schools are not typically your elite students --but rather students whose parents thought it would be a good investment in career to send their kids to study a couple years in the US.

Re: As Flow of Foreign Students Wanes, U.S. Universities Feel the Sting

#83

Post by eastWestMath »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #53
lewis500 wrote: post #40

There are really three different downsides to this. First, the foreign students cross-subsidize the locals' education. There are large fixed costs to running a university and these students pay way above their marginal costs. So now the universities have fewer resources; hence cutting the newspaper funding etc. Second, the foreign students increase the schools' reputations and can collaborate with the faculty. Resear…

> In my own PhD program, the productivity of the Americans was much lower than the foreigners. I think the bias has swung way too far the other way. Racism against Americans is still racism. Also, this applies mainly to undergrads (full paying students), not PhD students who are generally fully funded.

I don’t know a why you’re getting downvoted. I find, at least in my department, international students don’t get the same opportunities Canadians do. There’s definitely an archetype of a CS professor who does “interdisciplinary research” with a stable of international students doing software development projects for the bio and medicine departments.

Re: As Flow of Foreign Students Wanes, U.S. Universities Feel the Sting

#84

Post by lern_too_spel »

junkscience2017 wrote: post #5
jacobolus wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Edit: the downvoters win. Consider my (neutral/non-normative, but apparently controversial) comment deleted/retracted. Edit #2: If you keep further downvoting a comment that already explicitly says to consider itself deleted, you are a jackass. Please flag it instead.

No, foreign students are keeping UC corrupt. UC has been plagued by scandal after scandal, horrendous waste, graft, patronage...etc etc The UC system needs more oversight, not more funny money. Cal had enough money to build a gorgeous football stadium. They have enough money to fund the Chancellor's alleged slush fund. California residents have an extremely high tax burden. They are doing their part. UC needs to be c…

On the contrary, California's budget is awful because of a combination of Prop 13 and the lack of one party rule. By requiring a supermajority vote for tax changes, Prop 13 all but guaranteed that any additional programs would be funded by ballot initiative, which has forced way too much of California's tax revenue into no longer needed programs and bond repayment. The recent Democrat supermajority has slowly been cleaning up what little of the government remains in control of the legislature.

Re: As Flow of Foreign Students Wanes, U.S. Universities Feel the Sting

#85

Post by xkcd-sucks »

lewis500 wrote: post #40

There are really three different downsides to this. First, the foreign students cross-subsidize the locals' education. There are large fixed costs to running a university and these students pay way above their marginal costs. So now the universities have fewer resources; hence cutting the newspaper funding etc. Second, the foreign students increase the schools' reputations and can collaborate with the faculty. Resear…

So besides the loss in basic research, is it bad that universities should get squeezed?

...in a universe where superfluous administration is cut first, it is not.

Re: As Flow of Foreign Students Wanes, U.S. Universities Feel the Sting

#86

Post by tanilama »

mc32 wrote: post #70
tanilama wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unless u get a job. It is pretty hard by itself, even harder under Trump. As an investment, its return is diminishing.

I can see the difficulty of getting in to make a degree even more valuable in some countries.

True for Good Schools. It is a great privilege to get into Ivys and top US institutions. Those Midwest public schools in the article don't really have a reputation for themselves.

Re: As Flow of Foreign Students Wanes, U.S. Universities Feel the Sting

#87

Post by seanmcdirmid »

lewis500 wrote: post #79
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In my own PhD program, the productivity of the Americans was much lower than the foreigners. I think the bias has swung way too far the other way. Racism against Americans is still racism. Also, this applies mainly to undergrads (full paying students), not PhD students who are generally fully funded.

Regarding PhDs, grad international enrollment is declining. Regarding the full-paying foreign undergrads, their tuition contributes towards the costs of the university that are shared. American students, especially at middle-ranking public schools, are hurt when schools lose their funding. Regarding the "racism against Americans," there is no such race, and if there were one it would not explain research productivity…

> Regarding PhDs, grad international enrollment is declining.

Your source on that? All the schools I’m in contact with are still as international as ever in their CS PhD departments. I’m not sure what the trends are outside of CS, but I can’t imagine they would be very different. I think you are just pulling this number out of thin air.

Research is funded quite differently from undergrad programs. Sure, fewer TAships are available, but your research funding is much more detached. DARPA and NSF aren’t going to become stingy all of a sudden.

> Regarding the "racism against Americans," there is no such race, and if there were one it would not explain research productivity.

If I claimed (without any evidence in fact) that “Indians or Chinese are less productive than Americans” I would totally be accused of racism even though both India and China are multi-ethnic. It is especially a stupid thing to say as foreign and domestic students are pretty diverse, with slackers (or dreamers) and very focused students on both sides.

Re: As Flow of Foreign Students Wanes, U.S. Universities Feel the Sting

#88

Post by hyperbovine »

xkcd-sucks wrote: post #81
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In my own PhD program, the productivity of the Americans was much lower than the foreigners. I think the bias has swung way too far the other way. Racism against Americans is still racism. Also, this applies mainly to undergrads (full paying students), not PhD students who are generally fully funded.

You have to be crazy (e.g. addicted to the process of a research career) or clueless to start a PhD unless it figures your path to citizenship, so yeah most american PhD students are probably not the best and brightest assuming the talented crazies are a minority.

Ah, the old HN trash-PhDs-and-academia meme. It’s been... minutes since I last encountered this.

Re: As Flow of Foreign Students Wanes, U.S. Universities Feel the Sting

#89

Post by conjecTech »

This can be largely explained by the drop in birth rates in China associated with the one child policy. The number of college-aged Chinese in 2020 will be roughly half what it was a decade before[1]. People have seen this coming for years. The administrators blaming this on politics are most likely scapegoating for their poor planning.

[1] https://www.indexmundi.com/china/age_structure.html

Re: As Flow of Foreign Students Wanes, U.S. Universities Feel the Sting

#90

Post by sombremesa »

dmode wrote: post #42

I would highly recommend to Indian students not to study in the US going forward. At least until the generally hostile attitude towards immigrants and meaningful reforms in GC attainment is done. If you plan to lay down your roots in America after school, it will simply not happen in the current climate. Go study in Canada, Australia, UK, and India and contribute to those societies

All you have to do is get married to an American.

You could be the best and brightest or the dumb and dullest, won't matter.

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