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NSA’s top talent is leaving because of low pay, flagging morale, unpopular reorg

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Re: NSA’s top talent is leaving because of low pay, flagging morale, unpopular reorg

#321

Post by crispyambulance »

smallnamespace wrote: post #3

It seems like it's pretty hard for the government to compete with private industry in compensation. Federal pay grades are capped by Congress, and the top grade is around ~$150k a year [1]. And note that since it's the top of the scale, you have to start people off lower so that there is salary progression. Pretty sure a top cryptographer or security expert should be worth several times that, especially if they are a…

    > Pretty sure a top cryptographer or security expert should be worth several times that [~150K x several times]
On the other hand, I often wonder whether folks who are pulling in nearly a half million dollars in compensation in the private sector (as individual contributors) are really worth that much or if they're just benefiting from a relatively temporary windfall caused by scarcity in tech talent.

Keep in mind that government salaries still do come with decently good benefits and vastly more job security than start-ups. That is attractive to lots of people especially late in their careers. Cutting edge IT-related positions aside, non-cutting edge jobs in government do not face such stark competition with the private sector.

Re: NSA’s top talent is leaving because of low pay, flagging morale, unpopular reorg

#322

Post by zip1234 »

pc86 wrote: post #305
snowwrestler wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's popular to say things like some government employees are "folks who can't hack it in civilian life," but there's basically no evidence this is true. First of all, let's make sure we look at the full scope of civilian life with a sober eye. Anyone working the counter at your local Post Office could easily work the register at any grocery store in your town. And any medium to large company has plenty of internal p…

> It's popular to say things like some government employees are "folks who can't hack it in civilian life," but there's basically no evidence this is true. Have you ever worked for government? I'm a civilian contractor in a software architecture role to a public safety agency in a state government. Half the "senior application developers" haven't written code in 15 years and don't know what a unit test is. There are…

Payroll is the number 1 expense for government agencies. Easier firing would make a world of difference. I think the root cause is pensions. When people are tied to pensions for a retirement, firing people becomes a much bigger deal. Just pay a match into a retirement account and then when people can go, they go. Private sector pensions are for the most part long gone. Why should public sector keep them.

Re: NSA’s top talent is leaving because of low pay, flagging morale, unpopular reorg

#323

Post by d0mine »

sillysaurus3 wrote: post #150
natch wrote: post #122

There's a lot of blaming of external factors being injected into this discussion. Namely, government pay scales, and the Trump factor. But let's not forget the NSA's own self-inflicted wounds as well. Let's see, here's what I remember: * mission creep * overreach * LOVEINT * massive collection of bulk intelligence with dubious justifications * withholding information about 0 days it wanted to stockpile for its own us…

Yes, you forgot one thing: * We need a powerful spy organization to compete on the world stage. This is an unpopular truth that people in our circles tend to forget. Rome was an influence solely due to the success of their military. What do you think will happen when ours becomes ineffective? And the NSA is a key part of our military. Intelligence is everything. I think it's good the overreach was exposed, but I was…

We need food. It doesn't mean being morbidly obese is good for your health.

Guess: what country spends on military several times more than any other country in the world?

Re: NSA’s top talent is leaving because of low pay, flagging morale, unpopular reorg

#324

Post by chronic193 »

michael_storm wrote: post #185
cgmg wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is completely stupid and unacceptable. Why? > Why does Sundar Pichai make 500x more than the President? Do we, as a society, value running Google well 500x more than running our government well? Why must the Presidency be the most highly-paid position for the government to run well? That is a ridiculous and silly assumption.

Why must the CEO of Google be the most highly-paid position for Google to run well? The point is that the pay for participating in self-interested capitalist endeavors leads to outsize rewards compared to those dedicated to serving society. (Including thousands of career civil servants, since leadership positions have their own trappings.) If we value those who serve society, perhaps we should pay them commensurate w…

> If we value those who serve society, perhaps we should pay them commensurate with how much we value them

We don't value those who serve society. People care more about Facebook than their president/prime minister.

Re: NSA’s top talent is leaving because of low pay, flagging morale, unpopular reorg

#325

Post by wbl »

bonesss wrote: post #281
snowwrestler wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's popular to say things like some government employees are "folks who can't hack it in civilian life," but there's basically no evidence this is true. First of all, let's make sure we look at the full scope of civilian life with a sober eye. Anyone working the counter at your local Post Office could easily work the register at any grocery store in your town. And any medium to large company has plenty of internal p…

> Why? Because everyone loves to believe the worst about the government, so it's easy to sell voters on the necessity of a shitload of burdensome rules. There's also a fundamental difference between you being cavalier with your money, and me being cavalier with our money. Being tax payer funded changes accountability, investment horizons, and access to capital. The CEO of Twitter gets to put whoever he wants in where…

Why does Singapore have so much better administration?

Re: NSA’s top talent is leaving because of low pay, flagging morale, unpopular reorg

#326

Post by jessaustin »

guelo wrote: post #161
eadmund wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that we can (and should!) raise government pay scales, but we must also make it easier to fire people (or manage them downwards) for incompetence. Government work is for two types of people (and there's some overlap on the Euler diagram): patriots, and folks who can't hack it in civilian life. It's not just a 'perception of gov't incompetence': it's a widespread phenomenon. Government employees tend to…

> It's not just a 'perception of gov't incompetence': it's a widespread phenomenon How do you know? I know a couple of talented, hard working statisticians that work for the census. They tell me a lot of good work gets done there. Well, at least until this year when they have suffered complete demoralization after a Trump political appointee crashed their china shop.

Lots of private sector employees manage to deal with the fact that their CEO is an asshole.

Re: NSA’s top talent is leaving because of low pay, flagging morale, unpopular reorg

#327

Post by bcruddy »

d0mine wrote: post #323
sillysaurus3 wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, you forgot one thing: * We need a powerful spy organization to compete on the world stage. This is an unpopular truth that people in our circles tend to forget. Rome was an influence solely due to the success of their military. What do you think will happen when ours becomes ineffective? And the NSA is a key part of our military. Intelligence is everything. I think it's good the overreach was exposed, but I was…

We need food. It doesn't mean being morbidly obese is good for your health. Guess: what country spends on military several times more than any other country in the world?

The same one whose currency essentially powers the world economy via the petrodollar?

Re: NSA’s top talent is leaving because of low pay, flagging morale, unpopular reorg

#328

Post by tclancy »

dimva wrote: post #314
aristidb wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A quick google says: > Where can a mediocre software developer get $450K+?!

Any of the big tech companies, for starters. But, I don't work for any of those companies. You can PM me for details, we're hiring. Keep in mind this is in SF, and I don't know any senior software engineers here making less than $300k/year, more than everyone in the government except the President!

You should tell Comparably: their email this week said the average for senior devs in San Francisco was $155k.

Re: NSA’s top talent is leaving because of low pay, flagging morale, unpopular reorg

#329

Post by moocowtruck »

pc86 wrote: post #305
snowwrestler wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's popular to say things like some government employees are "folks who can't hack it in civilian life," but there's basically no evidence this is true. First of all, let's make sure we look at the full scope of civilian life with a sober eye. Anyone working the counter at your local Post Office could easily work the register at any grocery store in your town. And any medium to large company has plenty of internal p…

> It's popular to say things like some government employees are "folks who can't hack it in civilian life," but there's basically no evidence this is true. Have you ever worked for government? I'm a civilian contractor in a software architecture role to a public safety agency in a state government. Half the "senior application developers" haven't written code in 15 years and don't know what a unit test is. There are…

holy shit do you work for usps! you described my work environment almost to the T;
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